Patsy Cain

Oral History Recording of Patsy Cain

Interviewers: Aubrey Jaap & Clark Grant
Interview Date: July 24th, 2020
Location: Butte-Silver Bow Public Archives
Transcribed: February 2022 by Adrian Kien

Aubrey Jaap: OK. It is July 24th, 2020, we're here with Patty Cain. Patsy, I'd like you to start and just talk to you about your parents and grandparents. Give me a little bit of your family's history.

Patsy Cain: My mother, Nancy, she was born in 1913 and she was born up there on Claggett Street. OK. And she spent most of her life in the Gulch. Right where the Kelley shaft is, was where my grandmother's house was. My dad was born in 1910. He was born in index, Washington. And from Washington, he came to Butte, his father worked in the mines. His name was Henry. He worked in the mines and he died very young and left my grandmother, Spencer, alone to raise seven kids. And at that time, the women did not work, so I imagine they had some hard times. So my dad lied about his age and started working in the mines when he was probably 16 or 17 and quit school so he could provide for his sisters and brothers. And a funny thing with my dad, he was born on June 17th, like I said, 1910.

And three of his sisters, two brothers and a niece were all born on June 17. Ain't that a thing. And so he worked in the mines until about 1955. And he was a shift boss, a boss, a foreman, and he worked all the mines around Butte and when the mines would go on strike, which were hard times, he would always, like be a boss, but when the mines went on strike, he'd walk out with his men and they always begged them to stay in, but he would never, ever cross a picket line. That was a no no. No matter where we were in the United States, if there was a picket line up, we didn't cross it. And so when I was born I was probably born in Dublin Gulch. My mother and dad lived in a cabin up on a little hill in the Gulch. My grandmother lived right where the Kelley shaft was sunk. She sold out to the company and then she moved to Center Street. And so my mother and dad lived in a little house up to the side. And from there, I think we lived in several houses, but I moved and then we went up and we lived up on Center Street from the time I was probably five or six. And then my mother and dad rented a house up on O'Neill Street right behind Saint-Laurent School.

So I attended Saint-Laurent School from . . . how many years ago was that? I attended St Laurence School from the first grade to the eighth grade, and then from there I went to Central for one year. I didn't care for it. And then me and Judy wanted to go where the boys were, so we went to Butte High School. From Butte High, I graduated in 1960. I had planned on going to nursing school, but I ended up getting married right out of school and I graduated in June. I got married in October and during that time, my mother had had cancer for five years, and so when I got married, I moved to Crackerville, me and my ex-husband, Mike Johnston, and we moved to Crackerville. And so me and my son, Mike, and Mike, we moved in so I could take care of my mom. And so Mike was born in February and my mother died in October.

And she had a pretty tough go. And I was like just 19. So I had never been around a sick person in my life, you know, not that sick. And then after her death, my dad, he sold the liquor license from the Crackerville Tavern, which was the first liquor license issued in Deer Lodge County, because at that time, my uncle Petey Kirn, he was in the legislature. And he got the first issued liquor license in Deer Lodge County, yeah, and so I was there until 1961. And then we moved back to O'Neill Street, and so there I had my second son, was born in 1962 and then my third son, we had moved from O'Neill Street. Mike and I bought a house on Pacific Street. And then I had Bobby in 1965 and Joey was born in 1971. Then from there on I was a housewife, watching TV all the time, like a normal person, we didn't have to work back in the day.

And so then unfortunately, my husband and I got divorced and I'd never done anything. I really didn't have no normal kind of experience, watching soap operas and raising kids. I was a mother. And during that time, [inaudible] I got to be a precinct committeewoman, you know, back then. So I got a little involved in politics, you know, and went to committee meetings and got to meet politicians, which I never, ever knew. So when my divorce, I had to go find a job, I had no idea where to go or what to do or whatever. Dan Harrington, who was chairman of the Democrat Party, he said . . . well, let me backup.

In 1977, because I was a committed person and it was during a time when Jimmy Carter and Mondale were running for president. And Dan said, "Why don't you be the secretary for the Democratic Party?" Which I did. Very honored to do so, you know? I learned so much in that time time. Tom Judge, he was running for governor. Max Baucus was running for the Senate. Pat Williams was running for the legislature. So it all started there. Well, when the election was all over, Jimmy Carter, you know, I got invited, like to the inaugural ball and all that for working in the thing. And when Mondale came to Butte and he talked on the front stairs of the courthouse, we had the frontmen come in and before Mondale came.

So Mondale came to Butte. And I was told by the men that worked on the campaign, "Now when Mondale gets done speaking, we want you to go out the side door and, you can go in the limo and we'll take you to the airport and you can sit down on Mondale's airplane and talk with the man." Which we did. I was so impressed. I got on the Minnesota Fritz, it was called. Got on the airplane. And it was unbelievable, crushed velvet blue seats and whatever. And Mondale and all the reporters got on. "Let's let's get out of this dump." And of course, we're sitting there, you know, and I said, "This ain't a dump, it might be a mining town, but . . ." That goes on in them planes, I'll tell you. So Mondale said, "Would you like to have a drink?" So we sat and we had a drink and he had a very nice place on the plane. And there was telephones all lined up to wherever, I don't know. So they were going to fly from here and from here they went to Missoula. And then, of course, the election was over and I have no job again.

So at that time, Bill Kennedy, Cy Holman and Eddy D. George were the county commissioners at the courthouse. And they had split a contract and they were removed from their office. So Dan Harrington called me and he said they're looking for a replacement for county commissioner. I said, "So." And he said, "You get along so good with people and that. They just want somebody there for six months." Bill Driscoll was clerk recorder and he is kind of doing the internal work, you know, until we get some commissioners in here, until the city gets unified . . . May of 77 is when they unified. So, I said, "Oh, God, Dan, I know nothing about . . . I don't know nothing about the government." He said, "You're good with people, you'll get it." And at that time, I was under much stress trying to raise four boys and they were, you know, 15, 14, 10 and four. And I said, "I just don't think I could, but I need the money."

So, I came up and I had to laugh, my husband said, "I heard you're going to be the new commissioner . . ." No, Dan Harrington said, "Do you know Judge Olson and Judge Freeborn?" And I said, "I know the Freeborns because they're related to the Johnstons and that." And he said, "They know of you. So they're willing to take a chance on you to appoint you county commissioner." And I said, "Oh, my God." So I went and interviewed with both of them. And so Judge Freeborn said, "Well, I got to tell you, we need your answer by the morning." I said, "Really?" So I went home and told my friends and my sisters and that. And I said, "I can't take the job. I know nothing."

So anyway, my husband called and he said, "Somebody told me that you're going to be our new commissioner for the government." And I said, "Yeah, I guess." And he said, "Well, if you don't take the job, I'll come back." And I said, "Well, then I won't take the job. I'd rather you come back. We got to put this family back together." And so he called me back about two hours later and he said, "I don't think I want to come back." And I said, "Well, I have to give an answer by the morning." I took the job. So I was sworn into office that morning, the next morning. So it was all over the news. I think Butte was as shocked as I was. You know, there was a 4'11" little housewife who never had a job and running the county.

So the Ex calls me up and he said, "You took the job." I said, "You didn't know if you wanted to come back. I had to make up my mind. They need the county to be running." And so he said, "You can't even hardly balance a checkbook." And he said, "How are you going to run the county?" And I said, "You don't have no 3.8 million dollars in a checking account. So . . ."

And because of Maureen Pascoe, she was a great lady. She was the secretary for the three commissioners before I got there. So without Maureen, I would have never been able to do the job. So they appointed me. We got sworn in. Pat Kenney, me and Milt Popovich. I could tell you stories about us getting appointed, but we had revenue sharing money at that time. And Butte Silver Bow was running pretty good. The county was mad because the city came and took over the county and we didn't like that because in two weeks the city would have been broke and the county had money because the county ran on county taxpayers’ money, which the county is big, the city is nothing, you know. So we had the money.

But Butte Silver Bow wanted to unify the government. Now, whether they didn't like Cy Holdman and them, I have no idea. Because I was never involved. I never even knew anything about the city government or the city council. You know, and Alderman. You know, you heard of them. But like I said, I wasn't involved in politics. So from there . . . so anyway, I think we did a good job. The judges were pleased and whatever. So come the day of swearing in, Micone and Don Peoples and all the little troops come up and they didn't even invite us to the swearing in ceremony, you know, which I thought was rude. And I tell them that to their face. And so anyway, they got sworn in and it was like, wham, bam. Thank you, ma'am. And out the door us three went.

So there I am at home again without a job. So Bill Driscoll, because I had worked with him over the six months that I was a commissioner. Because he knew how the county ran. He'd been there a few years before I ever got there. So Bill Driscoll really helped me with being the county commissioner. And he said, you know, we have a microfilm department that's never been implemented here in the Clerk and Recorder's office. Are you willing to do it? And I said, sure. So I came. I left being the county commissioner. And Bill hired me as a deputy clerk in the Clerk and Recorder's office. And I worked back in the bookkeeping because everything was done by ledgers. We didn't have no computers or anything back then. And so I worked in the back, in the bookkeeping department and then Bill ran for office.

Let's see. I got to just stop a minute and think I'm getting ahead of myself here.

Anyway, I started working and doing the microfilm, and I had to have people come in and show me how to microfilm. I never even knew anything about microfilm splicing or anything. So we started microfilming all the deeds that would get put on the counter and that. And then we started going back and I microfilmed all the books that you probably have over here in the archives. I started with the number one book, and I think, I probably, I know I was up in the five hundreds or so when I got done. And then plus there was a big camera in the microfilm room. And it was a nice microfilm room. And Summit Valley Title used it and so did Montana Abstract. They'd come up and film their documents too. And then we had a planet camera and it was a great big monstrosity. I don't know if you ever saw it. It's still over there. And I microfilmed all the surveys, all the platts and surveys. So I did all of them.

[00:18:10]

And then when Bill Driscoll had to file, he ran against Mike Micone and he lost the election. So Jim Fogarty had run and Jim Fogarty was the clerk recorder, and then Bill worked in the Clerk Recorder's Office and he worked back there. He was the one that did the redistricting when they were just redistricting for the legislative districts, which I'm glad he did it, because I'm not too good with maps anyhow. And then Bill Driscoll, after four years, Bill Driscoll filed. Jim Fogarty filed, and for Clerk Recorder, because he was a clerk and recorder. Bill Driscoll turned around and filed against him. So you can imagine the animosity that we had in that office. I mean, I was working the front counter then and Bill came out and he said, "I'm going to file for clerk and recorder." I said, "Jim's already the clerk and recorder."

He said, "I want my job back." So very, very tough months from May until the election in November and worse after November when Bill won and Fogarty lost. So Fogarty said he wasn't going to work there anymore. And so then Bill got his job back and then he said, "You can microfilm and, you know, you do the front counter." And by that time, after four years, I could do almost anything in the office. So I was microfilming and doing the front counter. And he said, "I'll have you appointed as a registrar to take care of the person at the desk."

So that's where I started with my birth and death certificates. And I worked for the county, but I was also working for the Montana State Department of Health. Because birth certificates, they are typed up at the hospital. And I went down there once a week and picked them up. And they come in a three part thing. The white part goes to Helena. The pink part was in the clerk and recorder's office. The yellow copy is, you know, that's where the records were. The city had the birth and death certificates down there, which I think was highly illegal because when there was an adoption . . . So each month I sent in a report to the state - what the births and the deaths were. And I got a dollar for every person born and a dollar for every person who died. And I got three dollars for every person that they had to disinter, you had to have a body removed. So I got that from the state. I was paid out of Bill Driscoll's budget, and then, I don't know, he got mad or whatever happened. And he said, "I'm not paying your money that you're getting for these births and deaths out of my budget. So you better find somebody to pay you."

Oh, he was a tyrant. So anyway, I worked up the health department there on Front Street and I can't remember who . . . it wasn't Karen Sullivan. But anyway, I went down there, I think it was Dan Dennehy. And Dan said, "Sure, I'll put you in our budget." And it only amounted to twelve hundred dollars because there was probably about six hundred people who died and maybe six hundred and fifty babies were born each year. So I was paid out of their budget. So every month when I'd go to the hospital and pick up the birth certificates and I had to check them all and whatever, and I checked the birth certificates and then I would send the white copies to Helena, along with the deaths. And then what they'd done with them, I don't know.

And so, of course, you know, working with birth and death certificates, you find a lot of funny things. You know, if you go through them and they're like alphabetically or whatever. But the funniest one I seen when we came across was Jack the Ripper, and that was his name on the death certificate. And right now, I don't remember the cause of death. I don't know if he was hung or whatever, but you probably could look it up because it was in the early eighteen hundreds. And I was very surprised back in the eighteen hundreds. How many people died of cancer? I never, I mean, you know, cancer wasn't as prevalent in our minds as it is now. Everything's brought out in the open. There was a lot that went on with the births.

Kind of funny, when a child is born, you have to put a father down or don't put a father down, but it's required that they put a father's name down. So if they didn't, the father had to admit that he was the father because of child support and everything. So he knew his name wasn't on that birth certificate. But it was funny how maybe that girl's mother or somebody called, "Whose name is on the birth certificate?" We weren't allowed to say. Like I said, if your son didn't sign it. His name isn't on there. So that's up to you to find out whose name is on it. I can't give that information out and I have no idea who the father would be. So death certificates were a lot easier to take care of than the birth certificates. Some people would complain or say, you know, that isn't the cause of death. Well, then go talk to your doctor, because I just receive them and I don't have anything to do with the cause of death. And so I was the registrar from . . . I really don't know the year I started until I retired in 2001. I was a registrar with the births and deaths.

A story with being the registrar with the deaths, Larry Steinmetz was the lawyer and Bill Harrington and I think after a hundred years, you can disinter bodies and move them or do whatever, because there's no family left and so. I got about 500 dollars because they disinterred all these old bodies or bones or whatever, and you could talk to [inaudible] because I don't think [inaudible] would know about it, because I don't think he was there then. But they disinterred all these bodies and where they placed them and buried them again, I don't know where they went. But like I said, I received money from them moving all those bodies. And it was the Holy Cross. And I don't know if it was Mountain View. I think they were all out of the Holy Cross. Maybe.

So that was kind of interesting. Let's see. And from there. Like I said, I worked, of course, after we unified, I ended up being the secretary to the council. I had never been in city hall. So me and John Keriger, we would go to city hall, we would carry the old tape recorder down there. And Micone was the chief executive then. And so I would take the minutes, not doing shorthand or anything. I would take the minutes and John would run the tape recorder. And at that time, zoning was going on. So there was many, many fights down there at City Hall. Betty Kissack and Mike Micone, they locked horns big time. Oh, yeah. And I loved doing it. It was a hoot. It really was. I just didn't think people talked to each other like that, you know, down there.

So that'd be on a Wednesday night and Thursday morning, John and I would get together, we'd listen to the tape and we had to do the minutes. And that's where you see the minute books and all that. We started those. And that was in 1977, I think, or that must have been later. That must have been seventy . . . Let's see the government unified in 77. So we started doing the council meetings right away, you know, when I got to the clerk and recorder's office. And like I said, they would all meet at Malone's and have a few toddies before they ever went to the council meetings. Loosen up. And they went on with that zoning, we'd leave out of there at like one o'clock in the morning, you know, And I had kids at home, you know. And so I was gone. The meetings started at seven o'clock and lasted until one in the morning. And it was just back and forth, the zoning, and a lot of other things. But mostly that was the biggest thing that Butte was having a problem, you know. And city records, I'm sorry, were not kept very good. They were not, as you probably know from up here. As far as I could tell.

So we actually did all the minutes and that. And then I never even knew what an agenda was, never mind type one up. But we learned and we got it together. And like I said, I was doing the council. I was doing the council work, and then I was doing my births and deaths. Once a month, we'd type them. We'd get the books over here. I'm sure every month we type them in the books and I don't know how good the type is. Probably the margins aren't all lined up too good, but we type all the births in every month and then I'd type all the death certificates every month. And when a person died, then Denny Dolan and then Wayrynen and then there was another funeral home, White's funeral home at that time, they would bring the death certificates up to me. And then because you couldn't remove a body unless you had a burial permit and you couldn't until the death certificate came to me, but they worked that thing out.

They'd give them the green slip just so that they all work together so they could get the body to the cemetery. And because a lot of times death certificates were held up because of cause of death or whatever or of somebody, you know, suicide or something, the body had to go to the crime lab and that. So those death certificates. So the green slips, I just know they went . . . they were typed up, but there was nothing on them. It was just their name. And then they were given to the cemeteries. What they've done with them, I have no idea. So what else do I got here? Oh. Can't think of nothing.

Jaap: So you mentioned something about those adoptions in the city books. Can you touch on that?

[00:31:24]

Cain: Oh, yeah. Like maybe this shouldn't be on the record. Only because when there's an adoption done, Helena would send me a new birth certificate. And I would take the birth certificate that we had in the county, I'd take them out of the book and replace it with the new one that Helena sent me. But as far as my knowledge and I don't know how the city handled them, but them records have never been changed. So if somebody was ever looking to see who their parents were, if they had their birthdate, they could find out. Yes, they could. You know, and I don't know if you want to put it out.

Because when I took over being the registrar, because the books came out from the city and they were kept down in that storage room in the courthouse, I would go down that spiral staircase because we had the index books. So I'd go down there and I would take a new copy from the yellow copies that the state gave me. And then I would put them in the books downstairs. I would take that person's name out. So there was a lot of things that people don't know that they could find out. Yeah.

So I did all those things, but then after a while . . . Because we unified the government, the state, her name was Loretta McCarten, she was the one that handled the birth certificates for the city and Rose Mihalich, Rose Mihalich was the one that handled them when I was there. Then Bill Driscoll did it and then I was the last one. And then I think, Colleen, that works in the clerk and recorders' office. She's got a funny last name.

Jaap: Sirfratovich [?].

Cain: Yeah, I guess. I have never been in there since I left, so I don't know who does the birth and death certificates and they don't get paid anymore.

Jaap: The dollars for births and deaths.

Cain: No, they quit that. Which was a sad thing. It's a lot of hassle and responsibility, you know, I mean, these are people's birth certificates and to be indexed, right and proper. And, the state, I used to keep the yellow copies and after a while . . . the clerk and recorder for 77, we kept the yellow copies and I had them by years, just some boxes in the court recorder's office, in the back room. So then I kept a copy and then after 10 years, I got permission from Helena to destroy them. So all those yellow copies were destroyed. And you probably noticed. I don't know. I don't know if you guys come and what you took or what got put over here. So all the yellow copies that I had were destroyed. But the ones that you have, that's as far as the years went from 77 back. And so that's what's there with them.

Another funny thing, in order, they passed a new law that you could bury people in your yard or, you know, before you went to the cemetery or I don't know how else you would have done it or whatever. Or they were waked at home. But they were always buried in a cemetery. You see how big the cemeteries are now. Well, anyway, I can't recall the year, Charlie O'Leary who's the commissioner. He came up to the office and he said, "I need a burial permit." I want to bury my dad in our yard. I said, "You can't bury your dad in the yard." And he said, "Yeah, I can." I said, "Well, I don't know about it." I said, "I'm not going to give you a permit. I'm calling Helena." So I called Helena and I said, "Charlie O'Leary's father's dying and he wants to bury him in their backyard." And they said, "OK, that's fine." And I said, "It is?" And they said, "Yeah. So when Mr. O'Leary passes away or you could do it now and prepare a death certificate." I don't know which mortuary did it. And I don't know if Dugan's or Wayrynen's would have done it. Just get the death certificate ready and give the green copy to Charlie O'Leary. And he can take the body when his dad dies. So I get off work and I go over to St. James Hospital.

I go up to the third floor and I said, it's my understanding that Mr. O'Leary is going to die tonight. And I said, his son is going to come and get him and they come unglued. I mean, it's five o'clock. And they said, "We can't just give him that body. Do you know what happens with the body after they die?" I said, "No. And I don't care to." And they said, it gives off secretions and, you know, body movements, whatever, this happens after after death, which I did not know. And they said, "I guess we can clean him up and then then they can come get him. And how do they plan on taking him out of here?" I guess Charlie told me he's going to use a gurney from here and they're going to put him in the back of the station wagon and take him home. So they were kind of flabbergasted by it. And I was too. And we kind of all got a kick out of it. So they took Mr. O'Leary out to the Staghorn Ranch. That's where he's buried.

And he had made a coffin and they dressed them all up in a fine suit. And Mr. O'Leary is buried out at the Staghorn Ranch in his backyard. And then from then on, then you could get the ashes and spread them. And then the environmentalist got kind of upset because the ashes were spread. And if you ever look in the bag of ashes, there's particles of bones and that in there. Well, of course, with the animals up there in the hills, they thought, you know, this isn't a very safe thing to do. So then they kind of put the kibosh on it for a while, burying some people's ashes. And so anyway, then they passed a thing that you could dispose of ashes wherever you wanted to. And that's how they got it changed. Taking bodies.

And the funniest story was Andy Dolan, God rest his soul. This Indian had died. And he said, "So the Indians are coming to get Mr. . . ." (Of course, I don't remember the name.) And I said, "So how are they taking him?" And he said, "Don't ask me." But he said, he'd probably make it to the corner bar, you know. So anyway, I see this flatbed truck drive up to Dugan's in the alley over here and out comes a corpse all wrapped up in an Indian blanket. And I called Danny. I said, "They're putting him on that flatbed truck. He's going to roll off and he'll never make it down Montana Street." He said, "I don't know. He's out of here." So whether Mr. Indian, wherever he went, made it to his happy grounds or his happy place, I have no idea. But I thought that was quite funny.

Jaap: Yeah. Putting someone in the back of your truck. Oh, my God.

Cain: Oh, yeah. That was. When I saw that Indian wrapped up in that blanket going down Montana street, all I could do is laugh. I thought, "Geez, one corner and he's going to roll right off it." And, you know, the bodies are stiff. So that was a funny story.

And I think now and you can check with the mortuaries or whatever. I don't know what Dugan's do, but a lot of people don't claim ashes. Nobody wants them. Nobody wants to do with them. And I think you could call the Axelson or whatever. You could call them and ask them, but I don't know how many ashes they had or what they did. But they'd run an airplane or get an airplane and they'd go up and they'd drop them over the Highlands. So there's a lot of people up there in them there mountains.

Jaap: Yeah, they still do that, don't they?

Cain: I guess. I don't know. Do you hear that? Do they still do that?

Jaap: I think so, yeah.

Cain: Because people don't claim them. There's only so much room in a mortuary and, you know, it's a good size box. I mean, it's probably about a five-pound box of ashes. I mean, by the time, you know, they're put in a bag and whatever, so. Have you ever seen anybody spread ashes? It can be funny because they spread them. And half the time, they blow back in everybody's face.

Jaap: That's what happened when we did my grandparents.

Cain: Yeah, the wind comes up and we're all wearing the corpse. So what else can I tell you?

Jaap: Well, do you want to talk to me about the clerks' union?

Cain: There was no union in the courthouse. Dan Buckovich, who ended up being the clerk recorder, he wanted to start a union. No, Danette Harington, if you could ever get her in here, she and Dan Buckovich, they're the ones that started getting a clerks' union in the courthouse. Because the pay was so differential because when I first got hired as a deputy in the clerk and recorder's office. I think a deputy got $850 a month. A deputy did. And there was only X amount of deputies. I think there's not that many anymore because they got rid of them, you know, or you're not a deputy clerk anymore, you know. And so I think it was $850.

We started at $850. And then I think Dan Buckovich ran for clerk of the court after Babe Malone passed away and then Danette Harington, who started working at the courthouse when she was in high school, she ran for auditor and was there until just last year, last election. So Dan Buckovich and Danette started the clerical union. It's not easy to be the president of a union. I mean, you take a lot of stuff not only from your union members. They don't attend the meetings, which they should. They always make sure they were there when the budget time come up. It's very important. You are what the union is, you know, if you don't come, there is no union. And they'd always want to know what happened at the union meeting? And I'd always say, well, if you would have come, you would have known. And Arlene Speare who worked upstairs with the judges. She would keep the minutes for the union. And she's passed on now, so it's a lot of the stuff I'm telling you that people have passed on. You can't go back and see if I was right or wrong.

Jaap: That's perfect.

Cain: So I was president of the union for 18 years. I worked with the MFT, the MEA, the MPA, and Jim McGarvey, who ended up being the big shot for the . . . and I graduated from grade school and high school with Jim McGarvey. So we got to be friends. But because of politics and union and whatever, that's too bad, you know. I mean, but that was years later. We had a falling out over the thing. It was a funny thing, you know. And then Tim Clark, he was the personnel director over there and somehow the leaders from Helena would get like with Tim Clark because we were going to pull a big strike and I can't remember what year it was. We were all going to go out on strike because we couldn't get any money and we were going to go out on strike.

It was either Jim McGarvey or Lou Sheen, they cut a deal the night before. Which I thought was very wrong, and they cut a deal the night before, so when we were in the union meeting, getting ready to go with our sticks and to go out there and strike, they settled that contract behind our backs. Yeah, but we accepted the agreement, which nobody likes to be on strike because you don't get, you know, the pay. So I think we marched. Maybe we were out on strike for maybe a week or two. You know, it was kind of fun, you know. We were at work and we were outside, you know, and surprising who crosses picket lines and who don't. You know, that's not as prevalent now as it was because people have little respect or don't respect picket lines. They protested about something. It was no protest. It was mostly about wages and negotiating contracts.

You negotiate a contract and all they want to talk about is the insurance. So it's the insurance that's the big thing. How are you going to get a raise? Because they have to pay so much. It's the insurance companies. That's why you can't really make any money, because all the money has to go to pay for insurance. I mean, heck with your salary. So I know nothing about, like, the payroll department and that. I went to a lot of conventions over in Helena. I was a delegate for the state of Montana to go to the Democratic conventions. And, of course, I didn't usually have the money to go. And I didn't leave my kids, which they would have been taken care of, but I didn't. But I was a delegate over there and let somebody else go because [inaudible name] were a lot smarter than I was when it comes to the political stuff.

I loved working over there. It was totally awesome. A lot of knowledge, you know, and not having, I mean, the microfilming was easy. It's there. And typing up the births and deaths, it's all there in the books and try to keep it in your head. I haven't used it in 20 years. I've been retired, so I don't know how it's run now or whatever. And I don't know what keeps me from going and looking to see because the birth and death certificates were always put together. And then they were put . . . Dewey Johnson way back when he was a commissioner, before Cy Owen and them and his wife worked for them.

There was a bookbinding company someplace here in Butte. I'm not sure who did it. And I don't know if their names are in the books, but they bound the books. So the books were sent and that's how they got bound in the first place. And then Jack Crumley, owning art craft printers, he bound all the books. So you can see how the book covers change from nice and little ratty and then before I left . . . I think it was Mary McMann, we would take the birth certificates and death certificates and put them in the plastic sleeves. I think that's how they're done over there. But we put them all in them. It was much easier. They weren't bulky and that's how we kept the records.

Jaap: And you ran for clerk and recorder, didn't you?

Cain: I did. I ran for clerk and recorder. There was me and Barbara and maybe a third person. God, I should have sat down and thought about this for a week. [Stops to think] Bill Driscoll retired. And then Barbara ran for clerk and recorder. And then she was a very hard lady to work for. And she was jealous of me because I worked out at the front counter. And I'm not bragging about myself or anything, but I love to help people and I'd go 110 miles for, you know, I spend all day with them if I had to.

Just so they could find that record. Whether it was a piece of property or a child or whatever. A lot of genealogy went on until I couldn't even do my own family, because it takes a lot of time and patience. You'd find it in the index books. And then you got to go find the record books. And then when they started all that dual citizenship. Oh yeah. But you could become a citizen of Ireland. I think everybody in the country wanted to be a citizen of Ireland, so you had to come up to prove where you were born here to go to Ireland to get a dual citizenship. So that is how that all started back in the day.

Jaap: And so you ran twice?

Cain: Oh right, we're back to the election. I was trying to forget. So Barbara won the election. And so, of course, she couldn't fire me because I was a deputy clerk and she didn't hire me. And being a deputy, I was kind of protected. I was protected by the union. And then I still got to work there, which was not too pleasant. So after four years, up come the election, and I thought, I can't take anymore of this. I filed against her. So, no, she ran the first time and it was fine, and then after working for four years, I couldn't take anymore and I thought, well, I'll file against her and if I filed against her, she can't touch me, you know? So I ran against her. And Mary McMahon was in the race then.

So me and Mary and Barbara ran and we knocked Barbara out of the primary. And so then it was up to me and Mary. So Barbara was very hostile and crying all the time because she was out of a job. And I'm the one that hired Barbara in the first place to work in the clerk and recorder's office. This is off the record a little bit. I hired Barbara. She was nine months pregnant. And her family made her leave the house and she came up wanting a job when I was a commissioner. So I'm the one that hired Barbara Sullivan in the first place. And I went over to Bill Driscoll. I said, "Is there any way you would hire this Barbara Marinovich?" And he said, "I'm not going to hire somebody nine months pregnant. She'll be here a couple of weeks and then run off for a couple of weeks." I said, "Well, she has no place to go or she really needs a job." And so he interviewed her and he trusted her and he gave her the job.

And that's how Barbara started working in the clerk and recorder's office. I have to say, she's a very, very smart woman. I mean, she could run a calculator like I have never seen anyone, you know, not even looking at it. Barbara was very, very efficient. But Pam O'Leary got her nose stuck in there to work for Barbara. So Barbara appointed Pam O'Leary as the chief deputy and we were locking horns all the time and not locking horns. The union protected me.

I know when I was working for Bill Driscoll, my brother in law had a heart attack and he had to get flown to Billings. And it was during election time or something and what do you do? I had to get my sister over to Billings. And he died in May, and I think the election was in June. And so I just took off and I called and I said, I won't be in to work today because I had to take my sister to Billings because my brother in law had to get this stent put in his heart or whatever. So, Bill was a tough guy to work for, and he filed charges against me saying that I left the office at a bad time because there was an election going on and he tried to fire me. And it didn't work.

And he tried his best. There was lawyers running in and out. I was up because Jim had to stay a week. So the lawyer said, "Whatever happened with you? You know, you left." I told him I had to get Maureen to Billings and we didn't have money to stay in Billings. We don't know anybody. And she said, well there's lawyers going in and out of Driscoll's office, you know, I think he's trying to fire you. And I said, let him try. So I signed a letter that I left the office under duress, and that's what saved my job. So if any time you sign anything when you sign under duress, that's a big word. But that's what saved my bacon. I'm signing this under duress, and that's why I never got fired. That's good to know. Good to know.

Jaap: Keep that in your book.

Cain: So anyway, Barbara and I, it was a tough four years. And I couldn't take anymore, and then I filed against her and then Mary and I, we ran and I won the primary and I lost the general. I think by God, I can't remember. I don't know. It was 300 votes or something. It was hard. And there was a discrepancy. It was an all nighter. We've had a few discrepancies, you know, over there when Barbara and Pam or something. And I don't know when Joanie Cassidy was running for chief executive against Don Peoples. It was a close election to begin with anyway, and our office, but we worked out in the front, but the counting board was in the back.

Somebody, I don't know if it happened. I wasn't there. I didn't see it, but they were accused of using White-Out. So then we had the state come in and the federal came in, they locked all the ballot boxes and everything. I mean, they come in and they put them all downstairs and they were covered with black canvas or something until they settled this stuff and that went on and on and on about using White-Out, probably they interviewed judges or whatever. I wasn't involved.

[00:58:29]

I wasn't involved in the White-Out scandal at the courthouse. Whether it happened or not, they were saying that they whited-out, I guess it must have been Don Peoples. They whited-out the names and whatever they did. I don't know what happened. That was a big, you know, it's been so long ago. I'm just not even . . . hate to think about it anymore. But it wasn't easy. That was a big, big thing. I mean, Mike Cooney was the Secretary of State then. And he came over and, you know, that's a federal law. There's a federal law.

You don't tamper with ballots. And if the White-Out was used or not, you'd have to go back on the record. Did it really happen? Was it just an accusation? I don't know. Because you can't have any of your relatives or anybody serving on an election board or whatever when you work in that office. So I don't know if they changed that. But, you know, it's all up and up. And as far as it's going now with Donald Trump saying absentee voting, I think it's more secure than any kind because when that ballot is sent, sending out the ballots, you come to the right address that makes people change their addresses so it'll come to the right address.

That's when the ballot goes back, we take that envelope and we match that signature with that card that they first signed over there. So I don't know where he is and I don't know how they handle it in other states. I don't know. If it wasn't for sending out absentee ballots, the military would never be able to vote because it's the military that sends us . . . they all got that APO address or whatever. It's the military that makes sure that these kids all have a right to vote. And that's all done by absentee. It's been forever when I was up there all the 30 years or whatever. So. Yeah.

Jaap: Clark, do you have some questions?

Clark Grant: I do, yeah. I just made some notes as I was listening to you and I have a couple of questions. Did you ever have any favorite or least favorite commissioners or judges over the years?

Cain: It took me a while to get along with Mike Micone. When I did, I really, really respected him. The man was intelligent. Don Peoples done a phenomenal job. And then, of course, when Dave Fisher got to be there, he's my cousin. So, of course, I thought he was the best. It kind of helped when I got up to negotiate a union contract, I wasn't going in there facing bad stuff. I mean, Dave was a great commissioner. I loved the councilmen, Okey O'Connor and Dale Dart and Freddy Bowls . . . no he was a school superintendent of schools. No, I loved the commissioners over there. I was a secretary to the council, like I said. So I'm the one that got the specs or whatever to put in the voting machines, that thing you see over there and the tape recorder, so we'd get the agendas all typed up.

We worked on the agenda. The council meeting was Wednesday, so Thursday morning we'd segregate all the different, the public works and all the different departments and put them together and then we'd get ready to type up the agenda for the following week and that. But no. I guess I'd have to say Don Peoples was probably the best. Dave Palmer, I only knew him as a councilman, not as a commissioner. Very nice man. Charlie O'Leary, he is still there, isn't he?

Grant: He's not on the council right now.

Cain: He's not on the council anymore? Now, I kind of follow Anaconda's council. I never had any disagreements other than Tim Clark was the personnel director. I don't know. Tim would tell you one thing to your face and then do something behind your back. He was very wishy washy. And a very, very nice guy. Super nice guy. We used to go out after work and have a few drinks on Friday. And, you know, great guy. But I didn't trust him. I mean, tell you one thing and then you sit down at the negotiating table and it's like he never knew you before, you know? But anyway, you said, well, that's right. You know, but as far as that.

Grant: What was it about, Don Peoples that you liked so much?

Cain: He'd tell it like it is. Don started very young working at City Hall, and he was one grade ahead of me in high school. I knew him and Kathy Peoples. He was one year ahead of me. So as far as knowing them personally in high school, I knew of them. But I didn't know them because I went to Butte High, he went to Central. And then when Micone took over, being the chief executive, Don Peoples was his assistant. So that's where I formed a relationship with Don. Always very, very nice. I don't think I ever heard that man raise his voice. No, I really didn't. And of course, my ex-brother in law, he was the public works director.

And I ain't claiming nepotism, because I was related. No, I got all this on my own. So Don knew Butte. I hope l taught Don a lot as far as coming up and looking at the records or whatever. Tom Cash was a county surveyor and I had to kind of teach, which wasn't fun teaching the city guys how the county ran, run their own county. So I was kind of the liaison to help the city unify this government, and I did my best because it was important. And that's what the people voted. And so I hope I done a good job that way. I did my best. That's all I can say.

Grant: What were some of the most common causes of death? Do you recall?

Cain: Oh, yeah. Cancer was probably the big one. Most of them is heart attacks, myocardial infarction or whatever.

Grant: That's what got my dad.

Cain: Yeah, my dad too. My brother-in-law. Yeah. Most of them were that. Not a lot of suicides.

Grant: I was going to ask.

Cain: I don't know what numbers. You get the number of suicide rates, but I know a lot of people died of suicide, but that wasn't what they put on the death certificate.

Grant: Really?

Cain: Really. Very interesting. Yeah. I mean, because Butte is a gossip town. Butte is small. Well, he did not die of no heart attack. And I could tell you, well, off the record. When I lived on 2nd Street in the apartment down there. The funeral car or the hearse came by and of course, you look out the window. I looked out the window and I could see him going up the stairs to the apartment. Of course, down they come with the body. Living across the street, you know, and George Chalini, not knowing me too much, I said, "Looks like you had a little problem at the house last night." He said, "Oh, yeah, he was eating something and he choked." Well, he did not choke. He committed suicide up in the bedroom, but they put aspiration on the death certificate. Well, I know what happened. He committed suicide. That was the case. But I know that a lot of the causes of death were falsified for families. I'm sorry, but there is things . . .I'd say 98 percent of everything is up board. But insurance things.

One thing I got a kick out of, which I didn't know after working in the clerk and recorder's office.

When a man and wife bought houses years ago, they just put their names on it. The men would just . . . John Shea would own the house. So if John Shea died, the wife would come down and say, "Well, his name is still on the house. I want it in my name." Well, because it wasn't held in joint tenancy with right of survivorship, no they had to hire a lawyer, go through the court system and be an appointed administrator of the estate. And that happened so many times, so, so many times that the wife's names were never on there. And they just assumed and I think they still assume that to this day that their names are on property. And if your taxes come, that's whose name the property's in. If your name isn't on there, you're not an owner of that property. And I'm sure that still goes on today. "Oh yeah, me and my husband bought the house." Well, did you ever look at the deed? Or you don't see the deed because they're all held in escrow. But that tax will tell you who owns that house.

And I never did like when delinquent property would have to go off for sale, which people would always say, [inaudible] you can try to put the money down by their property. I never had the money in the first place to do it. But there's a lot of people who are shysters. These companies come from out of town. When delinquent properties go in the paper. They're the first ones here to put their names down. And people don't pay their taxes. They get that property. Especially with mining claims. There's so many mining claims around and people say, "You've got access to all those mining claims. You could own those if you wanted. You could go purchase them." I said, "I'm not taking nobody's property."

And I still get yelled at to this day. You could have been a very rich woman if you just was crooked, not crooked, but just not crooked. But just . . . I could have. I saw it. And nothing that I couldn't put my name on, you know, because their families were all whatever, gone. They don't know anything about these mining claims. Maybe over the years, Pat Callahan and Jim Davidson, maybe they've straightened out. I'm not really sure what the Treasurer's office does, but there's a lot of finagling that goes on with property. I'll guarantee it. I've seen it.

Grant: I was curious about your own children. And do you have any reflections on raising all those boys?

Cain: Oh, I got to tell you, I'm a very, very lucky woman. I have four sons. It was hard to raise them. My ex-husband was a good ex-husband. He paid child support, a lot of clothes, paid their medical bills. I've already talked about that. It's been 40 years. So I raised them and you can't be a part time father, and I'll tell that to anybody, you know, you've got to be in the house, you can't be out of the house. But he did pick the kids up every day from school, picked them up after school. He was there if I needed him, I'm sorry, what happened with our relationship. It was a very, very hard thing. He never missed any child support payments, and if I couldn't come up with the money for the power bill, like in the winter when you let it go. And he bailed me out many, many times.

And my boys did go to school. My oldest, he's 59. And Mark is 58. They both graduated from Boy's Central. Mike joined the Navy. He went to Missoula for a year, maybe a half of a year. He went to Missoula to the U. And he joined the Navy. Mark was a championship wrestler. He won the championship for Central High School, believe it or not, at 98 pounds. And he beat this Mark Tar from Whitefish and which was a controversial match. Every time they hit the floor. But it was at the Civic Center. And when he won that championship, I mean, he got a standing ovation, you know. Oh, yeah, he did it. It was a barnburner. And so he went on and he went to Billings. He got a scholarship, a full ride to Billings with the Bobcats. And he went to school, not Billings, I'm sorry, in Bozeman. And his coach was Mr. Willett. And making Mark try to keep his weight down to wrestle for the Bobcats.

He was starting to get sick, you know, and he'd call me up crying and he'd say, Mom, I can't keep my weight down. I mean, his body was starting to grow. He'd done that all through high school and then try to continue it on in college. And I said, I don't want you to do it either. He said his tongue was bleeding from spitting just to make weight. And the coaches see that. Don't tell me that they don't know it. So I told him, I said, "I'd quit." He said, "Well, what am I going to do?" I said, "We'll just figure it out." "Well, what's dad going to say?" I said, "What does he ever say anyway? So you quit."

So he quit school and then he came home. And my cousin, Tommy Kern, he was a recruiter for the Air Force and because of Mark graduated very high up in his class, because of his ability. Tommy Kern tried to talk him into joining the Air Force and going into dentistry or something. And Mark was going to go to the Air Force. I think his dad, because his grandmother was a teacher, I think they talked Mark into going back to school. So he went back to school and he graduated from Dillon. And now he is the superintendent of schools up in Ronan. He started up in Ekalaka. From Ekalaka, he went to Glasgow. From Glasgow, he went to Ronan. He was a vice principal and then the principal and then he's the superintendent of schools and that's how he did.

And then my son Mike, and I wish he'd stayed, he was on the USS Kitty Hawk. He was on the Kitty Hawk when it hit that Russian submarine and knocked off the top of the submarine. And my son Mike was in the Navy then and he got out of the Navy and he was a computer programmer. And that's just when computers were coming out, you know, he'd be like today and he's so smart. Mike's got one of those instant recall brains. He got into textiles, you know, selling uniform shirts. I'm the one that got Butte Silver Bow to make . . . I'm the one that . . . he designed that logo for Butte Silver Bow.

And so I'm the one that sold T-shirts and sweatshirts and all that stuff. So today he works for, he can't be president because the guy who owns Cleanwear, he's president, but Mike, he owned his own company. And during the last recession, it was bad, that last recession. So him and Eric, they sold the company. Or they had to give it up and then he went to work. He went to work for this Cleanwear. This Cleanwear guy wanted to do shirts and all that stuff and Mike's very knowledgeable. Oh, yeah, beautiful catalogs, thick ones. And he can tell you what page and what shirt. So he's still there. And it's in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is going through a terrible, terrible time.

You know with the rioting and he lives on Penn Avenue where the theater district is. So the street over from him is Liberty Avenue. And the rioters didn't bother Penn Avenue. Actually, there's not a lot of windows there. They went over there and looted and busted all the windows out and took all the jewelry and the furs and the shoes and anything of value. Busted and looted everything. And that's like from here down over to Granite Street. He lives right on Penn Avenue, up on the seventh floor. So Pittsburgh is going through a bad time.

My son, Bob, never did like school. Bobby, I can remember when he was in kindergarten, when he got on the bus, he kicked the aids that are the bus, I think he kicked her all the way to [inaudible]. Bobby hated school. Because Jimmy Shea didn't have to go to school. And Kevin Warner didn't go to school. Bobby didn't want to go to school, but he was older than them. So he had to go to school. So, Bob had his ups and downs in his life, but now he's a foreman on the crusher at MRI.

OK, and then my son, Joe. He was only four when Mike and I divorced, so he don't remember me and his dad together a lot. He remembers him and Judy. He's close with Judy and he stayed at their house probably from when he was a sophomore. And all his friends were from down around the flat. So he kind of stayed at his dad's. He stayed at both of our houses, more or less. And so he graduated from Missoula with honors. And Joey worked his way through college. He washed jockstraps. So he knows what it's like. And he worked in the athletic department over there in Missoula. And, you know, he said these kids don't want to work. And that's, you know, what he done. And so then he started to work with Mrs. Auburn who bought the Silver Slipper Saloon in Missoula. And Joey used to run around with one of the Ogren's or whatever, and she said, "Joe, would you like to come work for me?" And Joe hates gambling. So he said, yeah, he would manage that Silver Slipper over there and Missoula.

And these guys used to come in every day for lunch and they would be talking with Joe. And that one guy said to him, "Is this what you want to do all your life?" And you said, "No, I don't. I don't know what I'm going to do." He said, "Well, we own Integrated Solutions in Missoula. It's a computer company." They sell mainframes. And would you ever like to come work for us? And Joe said, "I know nothing about computers." And they said, "That's good, we'll teach you." So, Joe went and worked for the company after a few years. You can make money in that company selling mainframes, big bucks. So one guy said, "I'll sell. How would you like to buy my half of the company?" So Joey bought half of the Integrated Solutions in Missoula. And plus, they bought the top floor of the Gold Bar. Jim, over there in Missoula, $400,00 for that office space up there. So Joey bought the first half of the business and then a few years later, down the road, Joey ended up buying the second half of the business. The other guy said, I want to leave here. So Joey owns all the business. So Joe does good.

He's got a house in Polson. He's got a house in Scottsdale. He's got a beautiful home in Missoula. Joe's got all the bells and whistles going for him. But they all do. Bobby built a beautiful five hundred-thousand-dollar home up the mountain and lost it in a divorce, which I'm still bitter over, to Jody Collins. I still can't get over that. But anyway, he built that and I'll never forgive her. And so he still lives in Walkerville. Did I miss anybody? Mike, Mark, Bob and Joe. Mike has two children. Mark has three. Bobby had three. Joe has two. And out of that came 14 grandchildren and I got 22 great grandchildren. And when I was married to Mike Johnston, his mother, his sister, him and his brother. They were all teachers.

[01:24:37]

From them out of the Rosen's, they all became teachers, so I betcha there's got to be 20, 25 teachers with the Johnston's and the Rosen's. They've taught a lot of children in Butte, and then they all came up the hard way. None of them were handed a silver spoon, I'll tell you, the Rosen's included. Because Dan Rosen was an alderman for the city for many years. He started young too. And then he was a principal up at the Kennedy School. And his wife was a teacher. It just went on and on and on. So that's all I know.

Grant: I wanted to ask you about the consolidation and what was that like from your point of view?

Cain: It was hard because the county had money. And of course, me just being a newcomer at all the stuff. The county had the money. The city was going to be bankrupt, I think, within a month. So because they went out and I didn't know about campaigning or I didn't work on it. So Chuck Cromley that owned [inaudible] printers, they were the ones that instigated . . . Mike Micone and them to consolidate because they were going down the tubes. They didn't have no money or nothing. And I don't think the people, excuse me for saying, I don't think they liked Cy Holman or [inaudible] George. I think they didn't mind Bill Kennedy. It seemed like the county was poor, but it was the county that had all the money, it wasn't the city.

I mean, the city just had the police department, the fire department, and that's where they got their money, because the county fire departments are all volunteer fire departments. So, of course, everybody wanted to be a city fireman because they were good jobs back in them days. And that fight still goes on between the city and the county fire department since that many years, it still goes on. And I don't comment on it because I only hear one side. I always hear the volunteers up in Centerville. Being up in Centerville and that and being involved with the departments. But like my nephew Stan, you know, he was chief for many years of the Centerville fire department. And Jim Casey ran for the council. He was a councilman when they first started the council. Back then, he was the first one. In fact, I ran with Jim Casey back then.

I knew nothing about even running politics then. And I'm thinking after being the commissioner for six months, maybe my name is out there and I think he beat me by 52 votes. And which was a blessing, because if I would have won the council job, I couldn't work in the clerk recorder's office. So God was looking out for me there. I was not thinking when I filed for that job because . . . And then I didn't think I was going to lose. But the council don't pay anything. And so I took the right turn on the road somehow. God, I didn't need that place because . . . But there was a lot of animosity, a lot. Because the city ran on city tax payers' money or the buildings around here. The county ran on homeowners. And the taxpayers is what keeps this county going. It's not the businesses.

So the animosity, they walked into a gold mine, you know, when they took over the city. But when I was a commissioner, it was funny because we had like $183,000 just in revenue here. So I put a lot of people to work. If you live from Granite Street up north, I hired everybody. And if you lived that way towards the West Side, Pat Kelly was like president of the First Metals bank, he hired all those people. And Milt Popovich being that he was from the east side, he hired everybody from the east. So if you came in with a parka on, I'd hire somebody and they were from the north side. So I put a lot of men to work that retired from there. So that was kind of a big thing for me. I did hire a couple of firemen. I got on, but most of the people wanted to work and because of nepotism, I couldn't hire my relatives. So my brother-in-law Jim Hollow, who was hired by Pat Kenny, and then I hired Jack Hollow because he was a friend of Pat Kenny's.

So that's how we worked around the nepotism. Oh, yeah. That's how it worked. And so I was privileged to give a lot of people a start in life because I knew how hard it was. And I was very complacent with somebody who got divorced or whatever. With the tears and that, I was a softie, you know.

Jaap: But you had been there.

Cain: I've been there. I lived that life. I know. So I enjoyed it. I think my husband was a little jealous of my life because his was so disarrayed. Because the family was mad at him, because we got divorced. I mean, and they still loved me and he said that's my family. It ain't yours.1:31:18 Don't be hanging around them, or whatever. And I said, "Well, I can't quit being me." And I can remember when Jimmy Carter's son, Chip Carter, came in during the campaign when Carter was running for president. And I had to take Chip Carter around. And that's when the pigs and whatever were playing football out at the East Junior High. I'm with Chip Carter and a couple of big shots, and we're going through the grandstands of East Junior High and there was all the Johnstons and I'm with Chip Carter, I mean, I loved it.

And then, of course, with the frontmen that came in before the election, I mean, when Mondale came in, they came in and it was a big election year. They always are. And they come in and they set up everything and get everything set up before Mondale came into town. And so I got to hire all my friends to work the telephones up at the Finlen Hotel and having nothing to do with the county. So that was a good one [inaudible] votes for the county that time. So we had a good time with them. I was recently divorced and nice looking guys, and so we did a lot of dancing. Yeah, they called the Democratic headquarters Patsy's polka party. Parlor, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was right across the street from the Pekin, that's where Democratic headquarters were.

I had an interesting life. I was on the board for the health department from Helena. And I was on the board for the Democrats. And like I said, I was a delegate. But, like I said, I served on so many boards I could have built a house. That's the truth. I was on the board for Centerville and whatever the central committee, what they call that. I was on the health department board. I was on the community hospital. See we had the community hospital out there on Continental. And then we had St. James Hospital. And so I'd get the death certificates that came from the mortuaries, but I'd get birth certificates from the community hospital, which was more or less for people who couldn't afford to go to the nuns, Saint James Hospital.

Grant: What about the Butte Hill? What do you like about the hill?

Cain: I love the Hill. I mean, you can't beat the view. I've lived up there most of my life. I went to Saint Lawrence and I lived right behind the school on O'Neil Street. And my dad was a miner. My mother was an aid at St. James Hospital. And my dad worked at the Lexington mine and a 500 pound slab rock came down on him and why he never got killed, I don't know why and busted his back and it moved all his organs over to one side. And the company at that time sent him back to Rochester and they couldn't really do anything for him. So it took a lot of laying in a bed in a hospital with my mother trying to work to keep the family. And the company didn't want to keep paying his bills. And they gave him a ten-thousand-dollar settlement. And that's what my dad ended up doing. My mother worked. Of course, none of us had to work.

Marni worked a few places. Betty went to work at Hennessy's. And I had a great childhood. I love the hill. Centerville and Walkerville because one side of Bennett Street is Centerville, the other side is Walkerville. Now I always claim to be a Centerville girl. Well, we had our class reunion a couple of years ago, they printed up shirts and they put Walkerville on it. I said, I'm not from Walkerville, I'm from Centerville. So on our shirts, I took a marker and put Centerville on them. I'm not from Walkerville. Like I said, you know what they always said about Walkerville, what do they call Father's Day in Walkerville? Mass confusion. [inaudible] And we did not socialize too good together. I mean, they knew you were from Centerville. Very seldom you'd ever see the Walkerville people come down and find them in Casey's bar or the Anthouse. But the Walkerville bars, because they're their own entity, they broke the law however they want. So the bars would be open after two. So where did everybody go? They went to Seansburg's or the Hitching Post.

And because they stayed open after hours all the time. That's how Walkerville ran. And they don't have to adhere to any of our laws. Because they had their counsel and their mayor. But I think they want to join in because they don't have the assets and that to keep that going. Because they don't have a dog ordinance or anything. And I never even heard of ordinance or a resolution till I worked for the county. Jesus. Them and their resolutions and ordinances and zoning. The county never ran like that. I was free. You know, we got more rules and regulations in the world than you can shake a stick at.

Grant: How about the Butte of the 1960s?

Cain: It was great. You know, the jobs were plentiful. The mines were operating. My ex-husband . . . I moved to Crackerville in 1959. And so he'd drive in or I'd drive him in and he worked and he went to school at the same time. He worked graveyard and then get off work and drive to Dillon every day until he got his degree. So he graduated from there and he was the first teacher at Butte High. He was a machinist up on the hill. And so they hired him when they started the vo-tech schools. So he was one of the first teachers at the Vo-Tech school, and that's where he started. And then from there, he went into the Butte High and then from Butte High until he retired.

Grant: Would you come shopping down here, you know?

Cain: Oh, I'm a Butte rat through and through. Like my husband now says I have to go to three council meetings in Anaconda to get dispensation so Patsy can move to Anaconda. And they all know I'm a Butte rat through and through. And I don't want to burn the Hibernians or anything down, but they never ask me to come and join the Hibernians and that. But I got Irish in me. My grandmother was born in Scotland and I didn't even know I was that English until Lady Di married Charles. I said our name is Spencer, we're English. I couldn't hide. And so when Danette Harington and Lauren Maloney said, "Why don't you join the Hibernians?" And I said, "Well, you have to be Irish. So what's my maiden name? Well, I don't know. I said, it's Spencer. '' Does that sound Irish to you?" So that was always a fun thing to do.

Grant: I guess I want to hear a little bit more about your dad. And did he talk about his work?

Cain: Oh, he loved the mines. He lived for the mines. Like I said, he started at a very young age because his father had died with that black lung that the miners got. They called it silicosis. My dad even had it. And so he started young. And like I said, we lived by the Gulch. So them poor buggers walked to work and, you know, carried the buckets. We used to be able to take their bucket because they always ate their lunch in the dry. So we'd bring my dad's lunch to him at the Buffalo mine that used to be up there. In fact, I lived on Pacific Street years later. My dad was a very liking guy. I never heard my dad swear. Now, whether he swore in the mines or that, I do not know. He was very gentle and kind. He never drank during the week and Friday night, they'd go to Casey's bar. And then Saturdays he'd work around the house.

And then we took a ride every single Sunday and we went to Silver Star. It was called Gregson then. It's called Fairmont now. We took rides. Every winter, he built us a skating rink in our front yard because back in them days when he was growing up, ice skating was a big thing. And my dad was a very fancy ice skater. Oh, yeah. And you didn't know? He was a very fancy ice skater. I mean, they'd jump barrels and figure skating because men looked nice on the ice too. So every year he'd flood our front yard and so we'd have all the neighbor kids or whatever. So he taught us all how to skate. And we'd go to the Side Hill, which is up on Wyoming Street. And we'd go to Side Hill every night and skate and have bonfires, crack the whip or whatever. But our house was kind of like a house where kids could come to and feel safe. And because there was five of us. And so mining, I'm telling you, I seen that man get his finger cut off in the mine and you couldn't even get him to take an aspirin and he'd come home and sit all night in that chair, you know, with his hand all wrapped.

You know, he lost his baby finger and I think he lost his index finger in the mine. But like I said, they begged them to be . . . when a strike would come back then, and he could go down here to the miners union hall and get groceries. And that's what we lived on, you know, because he would not cross a picket line and they were bad then. In fact, the house where I lived up on Pacific Street. Oh, that guy was a superintendent of the mines and he stayed in and they demolished that house. That's right. So I lived next door to a house that was refurbished by the Anaconda Company because this guy, which is a terrible word, they called him scabs. And my dad, he walked out with his men all the time and they'd say to my dad, "Bruce, stay in. We need you." And he said, "No, I'll never stay in." And he said, "We'll give you any job you want." And my dad said, "No, I'm going out with my men." And he could have been very high up if he would have not honored his own conscience and the men that he worked with. And he was a very, very well liked guy. He was a little guy, probably about 5'5", if he was that. He was thin.

He was a great father, very loving, you know, like I said, kids would come to the house and he was a fun guy. He played the harmonica. In fact, when my sister just passed away here a month ago or so. Corey got my dad's harmonica. And Helen was going to give it to him because they got the ability with the talent. But I was taught to play the accordion. My mother loved the accordion and then just saying with the boobs that accordion playing ain't for women. I know. So I played the accordion for a couple of years and my mother was a piano player, just probably like many of us. And my mother loved to sing. And we had a great childhood. We really did. It was loving and kind. We had an uncle that came and lived with us. Stayed at our house. He worked at New Drug and he lived with us. And I think that helped my mother and dad with the income. I don't have no idea what kind of money exchanged.

When we first moved to Centerville up on O'Neil Street, Sullivan owned the top part, which had three bedrooms and a front room, a dining room and a kitchen and a nice big front porch, and Mom and Dad rented this three rooms and a dirt bathroom, and that's what we lived in. I can't imagine five of us kids in the bedroom. We didn't have a front room. It was just just beds. And we had a kitchen. Mom and dad had a bedroom and a dirt bathroom. And then when Mr. Sullivan died or moved in with his brother out on Flora Boulevard. We moved up when my mom and dad bought the house. I think they rent it for a while. And then my mom and dad sold it to the [inaudible]. Now you know my whole life history.

[01:46:20]

Grant: I just have one more question for you about, you know, what's it like for you now to drive up the hill nowadays?

Cain: I love it, I mean, it started to look desolate, rundown, I mean, it was and then I think with all the new houses and that going up there, oh, eighty percent looks better. But Centerville was always funny. You could let the kids stay out till dark. You never had to go. You know, if the air and the fire siren went off at nine o'clock, you went home. Every year, the Centerville fire department would have a picnic and we'd all go out to Elk Park and take all the kids on the bus. And then the parents would drive their cars and they'd have a big picnic and played all the games that you play. And a lot of fun.

I belong to the Centerville Fire Department Auxiliary and Fire Ladies. We'd meet once a month on Mondays. And Fire Ladies was always fun. It was just drinking and food, food and drinks. We had a good time with Fire Ladies. And every volunteer fire department had a women's organization and it was just food and drinks and then New Year's and that, there were parties. I can remember one time, it was Halloween and all the men were dressed up. And Don Warner was a big man and he had on a tutu suit, you know, and of course, there was a fire. And if you could have seen all those men get on that fire truck in costumes, it was a sight to behold. Funny times. I love the hill.

And my nephew still lives up on Center Street, Stan Williams and Linda. And he's thinking about moving someday because of all those new houses, everybody's got a dog. And he said that's all they do is bark, you know, and they were used to all the houses getting torn down, selling to the company or doing whatever. And there wasn't that many houses on Center Street. And now it's just house to house. And Stan being the land baron, like he'd done and bought this lot, that lot, this lot. Stan owns about five or six lots around his house, so they're not going to build on top of him. I say, "Stan, that lot next to you is for sale, delinquent property. So you better go down and . . ."

Grant: So someone was taking advantage of that. Well, thank you very much for your time here.

Jaap: We're bringing out the accordion. I didn't know you could play.

Cain: Oh, God, I haven't played one since high school.

Jaap: I'd love to see it. Next family gathering.

Cain: I don't even know if I could remember where the buttons are. Of course, running around with Judy Powers and she's from the hill too. Judy is an awesome singer, but a lot of people didn't know Judy could sing because she never did sing in public. Of course, when she moved to Seattle, she got involved with singing and got involved with a band. And now she's got her old band with the Slice of Time or Pickles, I think they're calling themselves now. And she puts on the Christmas shows at the Motherlode, whatever. But Judy took singing lessons off of Mrs. Cole and down there across the street from the Shanty. And I used to have to go to Judy's singing lessons every week. You'd think that I would've learned to sing. Couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.

Jaap: I love it, Patsy, thank you. This is great.

Cain: Oh, thank you. I didn't know if I could do this, but, you know, you get in that retirement mode. Who cares? You know, you don't have to worry about the time, the place, whatever, unless you've got a doctor's appointment. Doctor's appointment or the nails or the hair. Yeah, you got to take care of ourselves. So I do not like Anaconda and I don't think I ever will. I try. I do not like the place. My house is beautiful. I'm very lucky to live in the West Valley, out past the Haufbrau where the fire station is. And my kids will put in a sprinkler system this year, which now we're ready to move to Butte. They put it in. Yeah, just a couple of months ago.

Jaap: They're sprinkler people!

Cain: I know. My husband is going to be 85 in September, and he isn't walking too good. And so my Christmas present was a sprinkler system. And I'm glad because I have a hard time with my disabilities and dragging the hose around. I said to Mark, it's like living in a dream. The water, you know, we get the lawn mowed and the sprinklers come on automatically. I said, you saved us some wear and tear on our poor old bodies. So, lovely sprinkler system. That's great. But if something happens to my husband, I don't want to make any fast decisions because I've seen my sister do it and they were wrong. I think I'll stay a year and you know, I'd like to probably live like in the Finlen or someplace, but I don't know where I want to live. And I might die first. And he might marry again and have a new wife. I don't know.

But I'll sell the house and so I'll be comfortable with the rest of my life as far as finance goes. I got more money right now than I've had in my life. I'm 78. But it's too bad you get money when you can't do nothing and when you're young you're struggling. Like my son said, it should be reversed. It really should. Everybody so that I know. But now we got the money and we ain't got the mobility. We've taken four cruises. And I haven't been as far East, but I've been to Canada, I've been through the coast, Seattle. We've been to San Diego. I've been to Calgary, Canada. I've been to B.C. and Kansas City, been to Pittsburgh, been to Chicago. So, I have been everywhere, like I say, in my underwear, man.

Jaap: You said you couldn't sing!

Cain: So, I've had a good life. The only regret I had was the divorce. And that was probably me being a hothead. And I couldn't work. I was angry and hurt. And I wish I would have worked a little harder to keep that together because we had a beautiful family. And I think we both regret it today. I will till I die, but . . .

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