Mitzi Rossillon, Archaeologist

Photo Credit: Montana Standard

Oral History Transcript of Mitzi Rossillon

Interviewers: Aubrey Jaap & Clark Grant
Interview Date: May 28th, 2021
Location: Butte-Silver Bow Public Archives
Transcribed November 2022 by Adrian Kien

[00:00:12]

Jaap: It is May 28th, 2021. We're here with Mitzi Rossillon. Mitzi, I would like you to first explain to me a little bit about your family's history. Tell me about your grandparents and your parents, please.

Rossillon: Okay. Both sets of my grandparents were from Kansas and they were farming families. One lived on the east side of the state and one of the west side of the state and their children took a variety of paths. So my mother's family all of them went to, well all except for one of the children, went to college for a couple of years, but never finished a four year. And my mother was the only one to complete a four year college degree.

And on my father's side, they went to a lot of different places. My father got a college degree and some of his siblings did too. And one of his siblings stayed on the farm. And so they, those families, the original families stayed there for almost all of the rest of their lives. The grandparents living in Kansas.

Jaap: Wow. Start with, tell me a little bit more about your mom. What's her name?

Rossillon: My mom's name. She was baptized, excuse me. She was baptized Mabell St. Lawrence. And this will tell you a lot about my mother. She didn't like that name because it was old fashioned. And so when she was raised Catholic and when she had her confirmation, she chose the name Connie, and she was Connie ever after that, she was very strong willed. And so that's part of the story about my mother. She went to school at University of Kansas, got a degree in English and was very interested in journalism. Met my father there. They later got married in Denver and she was, after a year of working in an office, she was a homemaker for the rest of her life, which does not tell her story. She was, like I said, we always thought of my mother as mean. We would say that a lot, but what she, but I've become my mother's daughter.  And she, so she just had, she was just very, had strong opinions and was very strong-willed and she died more than 25 years ago, but among the things that really set her out from other people in the community is all of the mothers of that generation wore dresses all the time. My mother only wore a dress to church on Sunday. She always wore pants and that's just, she charted her own path.

Jaap: Oh, I love that. Yeah. Tell me about your dad.

Rossillon: He was the not mean one and he still is. He's still living. He's a civil engineer, came from this very proud of his father and what his father accomplished on the farm and kind of his father's in a way native way of thinking and trying to make a living. And so he carries that admiration for that his entire life. And he would like to be a peacemaker mainly. He doesn't like to ruffle feathers. When he retired many years ago, more than 20 years ago from the field of civil engineering, he didn't really, he continued to work as a contractor. He lives in the same home that he always has since we moved there in like 1957 or something like that. And he's a really, he's a really interesting man and someday I'm gonna be quite sad when he's deceased, because he's been a big part of my adult life as well as my childhood.

Jaap: Yeah, your dad sounds like a wonderful person. Just sort of when you talked about him before and everything, so good. So Mitzi when and where were you born?

[00:04:27]

Rossillon: Denver. 1953.

Jaap: Tell me a little bit about growing up, just school.

Rossillon: And so we were raised Catholic and so we went to the Catholic grade school which was close to where we lived. Then we went to public school after that because there were five children in the family and couldn't afford to send us all to a parochial school. So each of the grade school and the junior high, which was Wheat Ridge Junior High and the high school Jefferson High School were each a mile away from home in different directions. And we walked, that's how we got to school and back. And so that's why I'm a walker to this day is because we always walked. And our family, our parents prided themselves on how smart their children were and they encouraged good grades. However, I was really quite a poor student. I had good grades. I had good grades, but this is the way I studied all during high school in front of the TV, it is such a terrible, I've been trying to make up for that bad habit ever since. So the Catholic side of it was important to us. Not, I think of it often, not because it wasn't important as a religion, but was important because it taught us sympathy and empathy for the people that are in the world that didn't have what we had. And we didn't really have that much because we were a large family and my father liked to say, "When we started having a family, I made $7,000 a year." But in any case that is something that I feel like I try to take with me wherever I go. Is that, that instruction that I received from the faith. Yeah.

Jaap: That's really great. So where did you go to college, Mitzi?

Rossillon: I went to Colorado State University. When I was in probably junior high, I read a book on dinosaurs and I said, I'm going to do that. And then, because no child ever does that, and when I was in high school, which is even more amazing than any of the story is, there was somebody that taught a class in anthropology. And so that's when I learned about archeology and I said, oh wait, I don't care about dinosaurs. I care about the human past. And so when I said I was going to go to school at CSU and I was gonna study in anthropology with an emphasis in archeology, I'm sure my parents said, but they didn't, they just, they said, "Fine." And that's what I did.

Jaap: Yeah. I love that. That's what you want to be as a little girl, because you're right. Yeah. That usually doesn't quite end up being how it works out. So after you graduated, what did you do? Did you find work then in anthropology?

Rossillon: I did. The first job was I got paid room and board and lived in a tent. And then the next job was two weeks long. But after that I just kind of started piecing work together. And, again, probably because of my mother's influence in my life after I had been working for about a year, I said, I don't want to be a dig bum forever. I want to be a boss. And so I said I have to go to graduate school. So about a year and a half after I graduated from CSU, I enrolled at Washington State University in their anthropology program, and that's where I went next.

Jaap: What was the first project or site you worked on?

[00:08:52]

Rossillon: So it was in Lubbock, Texas. It was a really fantastic early prehistoric site. They had buried megafauna, which is, you know like bison and stuff like that, that do not, they're extinct species. And so it was really a great site to work on. Unfortunately, the crew that I was on, didn't get to do digging very much. I did get to run a backhoe for part of the summer. So that was, that was something that was the one and only time - I was quite dangerous at it. So it's a good thing that that part of my career was cut short.

Jaap: That's not what they taught you in school was to use the backhoe. Yeah, so after going to Washington State, what, tell me, what'd you do next?

Rossillon: So it took me a long time to graduate with a master's degree because I was easily distracted, which I see that in my adult life a little bit. And so I had the opportunity to take a semester off. I worked in the summers with the forest service and other people. And so I had the opportunity one fall to go to Ogden, Utah and worked in the regional office. And so I was like, well, I should do that. So I did that for a semester. And then a few years later when I should have been finishing what was a two year program, but I did not graduate till 1982, when I entered in January, 1977. But in any case at two, I had about two years after that, I had an opportunity to work with a former employer on an excavation at a historic site in Colorado. And so I did that. And so what happened at WSU is not by design as much of my career has been, it's not by design, but it has to do with my circumstance. I decided, instead of being interested in prehistoric archeology, I was interested in historic archeology. And so that was my emphasis really from the time I entered graduate school until now, I really think history is really interesting. And so, which is another thing that doesn't really match with high school because in high school, I was like history, whatever, even though I took it.

But I didn't know what, I didn't know what local history was. I mean, nobody talked about local history or anything like that. And it was like suddenly doing these projects in Colorado and in Idaho where you find out about what people's lives were like and what decisions they made and what kind of artifacts they left behind. It's like, this is interesting. This is something I can relate to. This is something like I would've heard my parents say. And as a matter of fact, when I was in college I got, because of a job I had, I got a tape recorder and I recorded my parents. And especially my mother's siblings' stories about when they were growing up and that sort of thing. And then it's like, oh my gosh, this is really interesting. Because they made them talk about things that you know, that they wouldn't have otherwise talked about. So I got this whole world opened up for me when I was in graduate school, on what local history is and why that's I wanted to focus my career on that.

Jaap: Do you still have copies of those then?

Rossillon: Oh, I do. Yeah.

Jaap: That's so special that you had the foresight to do that, because you only ever hear people say, I wish I would've, you never hear, I did that. So good for you. Yeah. I didn't like history either. I hated history growing up. Isn't that funny? It was so boring. The way they teach it. It's the way they teach it. It's so boring. And so yes, it doesn't have any relation to me. Yeah. So I relate to what you just said a lot. So you're working on this site in Colorado. So were you close then to your family where you were at and everything?

Rossillon: No, they would come and visit me.

[00:13:00]

Rossillon: And they actually came and visited me when I was going to school at WSU mostly to say, "You're not graduating yet? Are you graduating this semester?" So I have been in places where they have visited, but I would say mainly my family doesn't understand really what I do. I mean, I talk about it, but in terms of, I don't know if anything anybody in my family has ever read anything that I've written, but to be fair to them, nobody reads anything that I have written.

Jaap: Unless they're required by their . . .

Rossillon: Even though that's what my life is, writing, looking, digging, or not digging and writing, writing.

Jaap: Do you like the writing part of it?

Rossillon: I hated it until I got over that.

Jaap: So how did you end up here? Unless there's something you'd like to share before, how'd you end up in Montana?

Rossillon: When I graduated, I had a job with the Forest Service in Idaho and then I went to Lincoln, Nebraska for about a year and a half and worked for the National Park Service. And while I was there, somebody had said, "Oh, they're looking a archeologist for the department of highways," as it was then. And I knew my job, which was just temporary, was ending. So I said, I'm gonna apply for that job. Once again, I didn't really hardly know anything. But they must have had a bunch of other dopes that applied for the job at the same time. So that's how I came to Montana. And so how I came to Butte is I worked for there for five years. And once again, I had applied for a job to be something other than archeologists, like the head of the unit, but I could see that I didn't get the job and I could see, I would be years and years there. And I didn't want to stay there for years and years in that same position. And so Fred Quivik, who, I don't know if you've interviewed, but it would've been wonderful if you could have. He was in a business here in town that by the time I joined, it was Renewable Technologies, and they had, he who is a architectural historian, Mary McCormick who's an architectural historian and Lon Johnson who's a historic architect, but they didn't have an archeologist. And they thought they should fill out their business, which was a consulting firm to offer the full range of cultural resource services to their clients. And I said, "We'll bid on this job. If I get the job, then I'll quit my job." And then, so with only one job possibility, I quit and came to Butte. That was in 1990.

Jaap: Wow. I love that. What did you think of Butte when you first got here? What was your first impression?

[00:16:06]

Rossillon: Well, I had had seen it before because I had actually, because I knew Fred earlier. And I actually met Mary when I was in Lincoln, Nebraska, because too long of a story to say, but in any case, so I had been here before and it was just a fun town and I didn't really know that many people. When I moved here,  I still thought it was interesting. I thought the architecture was interesting, but I didn't really appreciate it as I think I have, as time has gone by. I certainly appreciated the history. One of the reasons I knew Fred was from an organization called the Society for Industrial Archeology. And there's a Montana chapter, which is called the Klepetko chapter. And so Fred and Brian Shovers and others, we'd meet in different places and we'd go look at architecture. We'd look at, really industrial sites was the focus. And so that was really interesting to me. And so that kind of interest really grew in me once I moved to Butte.

Jaap: What was the first project you worked on here?

Rossillon: It was actually, as we like to call it, Zortman, Montana. The Pegasus gold at that time was going to do an expansion. And so they needed, because it was on BLM property, they had to have an inventory that was done, an archeological inventory. And so that's what we worked on, was that one and then came back to Butte and wrote and wrote and wrote.

Jaap: I'm kind of jumping outta order here, but I have just what's on my mind. Can you talk to me about the Mai Wah dig that you worked on?

Rossillon: There aren't many opportunities in the field, the part that I work in, which is contracting for compliance work for agencies. They like to avoid sites instead of impacting sites because it costs money to do an excavation. And so in my career, they're not many opportunities to do an excavation, but the Mai Wah society knew that URA was interested in developing that property years ago and they said, we know there's stuff over there that was part of Chinatown. That's really at the south edge of Chinatown. It would really be in the best interest of the community, if there was an archeological dig there and once the dig was done, then you could say it was cleared for development and it would be as they say, a win-win for the community.
 
And so URA was convinced of that argument. And we were actually contracted, our business at that time, Renewable Technologies was contracted with, let's see, maybe I've got that wrong. Maybe we were maybe we were, had a contract with the URA, which just sole sourced to us because there weren't that many firms in Butte and in Southwest Montana. And it was my specialty is obviously historic stuff. So that was a great opportunity because Butte is a great town and has a wonderful history and the opportunity to dig in an area where it had essentially been undisturbed from the 1930s.

So because it'd been kind of flattened out and was used as used car dealership or something like that, all of that opportunity to see something in like in a little time capsule is a dream of a historic archeologist. And so it was hot, hot, hot. It was like 95 degrees every day or something like that. But just such fantastic artifacts and some interesting building ruins. And the public interpretation was an important part of that. And so this is where the Mai Wah came in. I think Mai Wah had a part of the contract or they had some kind of just understanding, but they provided somebody that was there. So when the public came, we were kind of like behind a fence or a barricade, but they would give them an introduction. So we wouldn't have to spend all day talking to the public. So we got to talk to the public about what we were finding, what was exciting, what was boring, what we thought some of it might mean and that sort of thing. And so that was a really, it was a really great project for me. And I hope it was for everybody that was in Butte that summer, because it's pretty unusual to be able to get that close to an excavation.

Jaap: What were some exciting things you found?

Rossillon: You know there was a glass egg and apparently I learned later it was just used for darning. Apparently they wouldn't necessarily be Chinese. There was a cuddle bone and I thought, oh, they must have kept a parakeet or something, but actually the cuddle bone was, as I recall, it's been quite a while, I think it was used for medicinal purposes. So there was a really interesting combination of things that were Euro-American medicine bottles and stuff like that. And then there was little Chinese medicine bottles, lots of Chinese pottery. So from wine bottles to little sauce jars and those sorts of things, just to see what the material culture was like.

[00:22:06]

Priscilla Waggers from the Asian Comparative Collection, I couldn't remember what it's called, at the University of Idaho came over at one time to help with some identification. And she said, well, if you ever see any of these in the secondhand store, it would be great for our collection. And I have to tell you, never have I seen any of the things that we found in that excavation, have I ever seen secondhand. And I do a lot of second handing. Yeah, because that culture essentially ended in the 1930s and the 1940s with the exception of the Chin family who I think maybe lasted a little bit longer in this community. But everything about that lifestyle is gone. I mean, you can't find a little, you can't find anything on the street, although you might see a little gaming piece. I mean, that's how that was identified as something that was special is because gaming pieces kept churning up, but you can't find that as a secondhand store.

I mean, it is all gone except for the Pekin Noodle Parlor. Now the Pekin and also the Mai Wah are the only places that you can see and excuse me, World Museum Mining also has some, a great herbal collection there as well. The only places you can see the material culture of the Chinese in Butte.

Jaap: Which is so sad, because it's such an interesting culture, I think, like, so when we did the Pekin exhibit that was so fascinating, all of those things. And have you ever been in that basement? I mean, it's pretty amazing all the things they have. Were you interested in the Chinese before that or did that kind of like spark your real interest in that culture here?

Rossillon: I knew a little bit about it because I was early on I was involved with Mai Wah, very, a little bit on the side, but it really amounted to nothing. I'm trying to think. I had also seen Chinese artifacts at other test excavations that I'd done in other locations. And the story about the Chinese in Montana is kind of different from a lot of other communities, like supposedly there were Chinese that worked on railroads in Montana, but it wasn't common. So their contribution to our, what our, the communities lives were like, or something was a little bit different in Butte. And so that really, I learned a lot more about that, and how history and archeology intersect is really interesting. And I hope we have the opportunity to talk about the intersection between history and historic preservation, because it's the same thing that is really, that is one can talk about them separately, but there is no separation. So stories about one of the places was a Chinese Baptist church, and one of the figures was Hum Fay. And so just knowing that that Hum Fay lived in that neighborhood and then that he was married in that Chinese Baptist church. And you know, it just that whole, that whole connection between that is, is so I don't know why people don't necessarily get it because it is really important in my discipline and in our community.

[00:25:52]

Jaap: Yeah. I'm glad we're interviewing you now. I've wanted to, you've been on my list for a really long time, and I feel like now is a good time to talk to you. I just feel like with everything that's been going on in our community over the last few months. So aside from that, so yeah, we're going to get to what you just mentioned. So how did you get involved with historic preservation here? Was it just that natural kind of linking of your work with?

Rossillon: Well, kind of what happened in my career, when I was at the highway department. And then later there's not always a project where you can say, I'm just working on historic archeology. You have to sometimes do architectural inventory. And of course I didn't do a lot of, I didn't have the opportunity to do a lot of that, because that wasn't my expertise. But over time I became interested in architecture because for projects, I had to know something about it. And so that just kind of grew a little bit. And then I bought my house that I live in now in 1994, it's uptown. I looked at it and I saw this beautiful house. Some people might dispute that adjective, but well, when I got it, it was quite unattractive in a lot of ways, but I looked up and I saw that beautiful piece of stained glass.

And I said, “Oh my gosh, I'm buying this house because of a piece of stained glass and because of these hot water heat radiators.” And so then as I started to be just at that time, by that time, many years earlier, I had met who had been my boyfriend, who would be my future husband. And he had this whole interest in architecture. I think he wished he had been an architect at some time, but he was really interested in historic buildings and he was also interested in recycling. He was the king of recycling and that was really kind of part of his upbringing. They didn't do it because it was something cool to do. It was something they had to do. And so that whole appreciation for historic materials, all of those things kind of coalesced into a time. The year that I bought my house was the year that Butte Citizens for Preservation and Revitalization formed. And I wasn't there at the very beginning, but within probably six or seven or eight months, I said this is an organization I can really get behind. And because by that time I'd really, you know, I walked to work from where I lived when I first came to town in 1990 to the Metals Bank every day. And so I got to walk by all this architecture and all of that. And so I just, that's how I kind of developed this which now is maybe not an obsession, but could be an obsession with Butte’s historic architecture.

Jaap: Yeah. What was the impetus for CPR starting in '94? What was going on that made the community say we should form a group.

Rossillon: I wish I could remember that. But it really had to do with, I think some of the same things that people say now, wait a minute, we just moved here from someplace else. And a lot of those people are, they were Tech people or something like that, that is Montana Tech. So they came and they said, this is something we have never seen before. And they said, we just think that something should be done to ensure going forward, that at that time I would say there, I have to think there were probably a few demolitions at that time. There certainly were within a short time, a really important one that came up and or was going to be a demolition. It turned out to be better than that. So I think that they were just - they cared about historic buildings because they cared about historic buildings, where they came from, and now they came to this community and this, like, this is history on steroids. This is historic buildings and historic preservation on steroids. And so they saw a need and they also saw a need to choose a title for the organization that said, we know it's not just about preservation, it's about revitalization. And we don't, again, those things are not two separate things that are pieces of the same fabric. And so I can't remember the exact impetus, but it was along those lines.

Jaap: What was that demolition that was coming up?

Rossillon: So I'm trying to think what year it would be. And maybe you guys would remember better than me. It was the O'Rourke, well, it first, oh yeah. I'll tell you what, it first started with the hospital demolitions and that got people's panties in a wad and what, unfortunately, what happened with that is there was talk, we should do something about these hospital demolitions and it was like, well, what can we do? Because we're up against this big corporation that wants to make, as I like to refer to it to this day, the green mile and the demolitions involved, I don't know how many, at least 10 buildings. I'm sure. And so there was just helplessness at that time.  But when the O'Rourke came up and when we knew that that was endangered in whatever year it was, something like 97 or 98 or something like that.

Jaap: 97.

[00:31:58]

Rossillon: Yeah. That really galvanized people. And I'll tell you what was a turning point for me is a woman named Carol Westing. And Carol Westing and her husband whose name I cannot remember right now, but maybe I will shortly. They were two of the people that really started CPR. He subsequently died of cancer at a very young age. And by the time, probably within a year of that, this whole thing with the O’Rourke came up and she said, “This would have hurt him to the quick and it's over my dead body, that this building is gonna come down.” And that was the first time I heard somebody in CPR say this is going to be a line drawn in the sand. And it was to me, personally, so invigorating to hear someone say out loud, which I had been advocating for before. And as it turned out she didn't have to, she didn't have to die with the building going down and whether it's condoed or half of it's now condoed out.

Jaap: So, I mean, yeah, you look at it and I love that building. What was the public's reaction to that? Was the public supportive of CPR at the time? So I feel like there's just hostility everywhere amongst everyone, but with the O'Rourke, was the community involved? And I know CPR advocated a lot to save that building. And what kind of, what was that process like?

Rossillon: So CPR has not had the community support that we envisioned. When you have a dream and you see what the dream is, and you can't understand why people can't share your vision for what the community should be. It's very frustrating. But to tell you the truth, the support for CPR, I mean, I know it's been whatever, this is 27 years, so, that's amazing.

And I say, it's been growing, everything in Butte grows with a very flat curve. And so has our support in CPR, but even lately it has really grown in the community because there are people that again, new people that come in all the time and say, “I don't understand why, I don't, this isn't valued.” And the people have been here a long time and say, “I've just about had it with things that have bad renovations or demolitions,” or something like that. And so the O'Rourke was one of the first times where we, there were other advocations that we did. So the, Acoma was something that was going to be demolished and we really made, expressed some concerns about that.

[00:35:06]

When the O'Rourke came up, the circumstances for that is that the county had it, it never had a, it never had a red tag on it, but they said it was really in such bad shape. It had to be demolished. And so CPR was able to get a grant to do a structural, to have a structural engineer come in and look at it and say, “There are some problems, they are fixable and it absolutely is not falling down.” And somewhere in the middle of that, there was a meeting that went to, I wish I could remember the name of the board. It does. It's a citizens community board through Butte Silver Bow that hardly meets, but it essentially has to do when there's a disagreement about a building or a building structure or something like that.

And I'm sorry, maybe sometime, maybe Clark can edit in the name of that, that board, the group that never meets. But in any case there was a public meeting they were going to meet. And so instead of having five people show up, there were like between 15 and 20 people who showed up about, specifically about the O'Rourke.

And so there were people at that time, Jim, who was still not my husband, but he came in and he talked about things that were no longer in Butte. But when he enlisted in the Navy, back in the dark ages, he came to muster out in Butte, at the old BA&P depot, which is of course gone. And so just talked about all the things that he saw in this community, but it was Irene Scheidecker's mother who came and you know, it's like people that we didn't expect, because, so there were these couple of old ladies, because there was a friend of Irene's mother were like, what are they doing here? And then there was this man that said, “Well, I think this preservation is important,” and we're like, “Who is that guy?” And it was John Weitzel, the sign maker. Yeah. And so all these people that we didn't even know about. And everyone talking about that essentially got the county to back down. That's probably when we did the structural analysis, that's when we did boarding up of windows.  In the meantime we had done lots of cleaning out of pigeon poop out of there. And we put a really rinky dink, stupid barrier along the sidewalk. So nobody could walk in the building and get hit by falling bricks.

Jaap: Yeah. Such a danger. Yeah. All the time. Those flying bricks all over the town. Yeah.

Rossillon: And in the meantime, the other thing that CPR did at the same time, but I can't remember the sequencing, it was on the tax rolls. And so I think it was three years in tax in arrears. And so at that time we were able to buy essentially one year. And so that put it off for a whole year. Well, by that time, the impetus for demolition had really passed. And then a series of owners who weren't so good, you know, came forward.  But in any case that essentially saved that. So that's essentially the history in a very convoluted and not well remembered way of the O'Rourke demolition that never was.

Jaap: Is this how it works everywhere? Or why does this community, I feel like Butte-Silver Bow, in general, have a real issue with these buildings? I mean, why are they such a problem? Why do they always need to come down? And why, when there's public support, so much vocal, public support, are they still coming down? Do you have those answers?

[00:39:12]

Rossillon: Well I think I have an idea. Demolition in this community has been a solution for a long time and I'm not talking . . . So when the pit expanded there was that whole demolition of communities at large and then whatever it was called, it was better beyond, but oh yeah. Butte Forward, there. Thank you. Butte Forward - that whole thing. And Model Cities is a perfect example. Model Cities was a program in the sixties. It was really the precursor to urban revitalization for the seventies. But in Butte they took after it with a vengeance. And I think there were something like 350 buildings that were demolished during Model Cities, so that to which I can only say there's a photograph that I saw at the World Museum of Mining is probably here, but it's the most fantastic photograph of Butte that was probably taken in the thirties, maybe from a plane or something like that. As I remember, that is just this huge mass of brick buildings. I mean, it's huge. There are no empty spots in between. You're like what happened? And the answer was Model Cities, the end of Meaderville, of that.

Jaap: Progress.

Rossillon: Yeah. Yes. Progress, yes. Progress. So I do have to say there's one thing I said when I was working at the Archives here for a short time, I said, there's two things about Butte. And one thing, and is that, that is, excuse me, I want to say this right. That it makes the Archives what it is. And one thing is that Butte never throws anything away and that's a good thing. And the other thing is Butte never throws anything away. And that's a bad thing because there's just all of this stuff. Well, all of those papers and things that came into the Archives, everything that we have saved, not intentionally, but by default, for years and years, for some people in this community, they consider holding the community back. And so the solution is not to find alternate uses for the things that we have, but it's to essentially say everything will be better if we get rid of this, everything will be better if we get rid of this. And yet all of these years after getting rid of things there, certainly our community is as promising as ever. And that is wonderful, but the demolitions that have happened all over for years and years and years, starting in the sixties and well, the fifties and sixties have not yielded the future that I think a lot of Butte people thought there would be.

Jaap: I mean, yeah. I'm just trying to think of an example that a, it just hasn't been left with a, either a dirt lot or maybe if it's nice, it's paved. I mean really though, I mean, like, right. Yeah. There is. They're not even community spaces, they're just empty.

Rossillon: And that is really, especially in the, we think of that, in the commercial district, but in the residential area, it is absolutely the same. I mean, where there were and whether or not they're in the county hands or if they're in somebody else's hands, those lots have not been used as well as they could be over the years. And so to me, it's like, Joni Mitchell said it best . . .

Grant: “I wish I had a river I could skate away on.”

Rossillon: Yeah. Yes. So, what has happened over time though, is that people still are not particularly vocal about historic preservation in this community. However, there are more and more people that are vocal and there are many, many, many more people than there ever were, when something is said in a public context and they see what has happened, they say, we are behind you.

It's like, I want you to be in front of me, but okay. You are behind. I mean, that is really encouraging because that was something we never heard for years. Yeah. And so. CPR has, I'm going, going off on a tangent.

Jaap: We like tangents.

Rossillon: So CPR tried to really broaden its interest by going off in all sorts of directions. So at the beginning it was just, we're going to be an advocate and we're going to be there. You know, there are buildings that are in danger and we're going to have these individuals that are assigned a building, and they're going to do a walk by every once in a while. And they're going to report if there's break-ins or something like that just to our organization. So we kind of know what is bad. And then we can advocate for the owner or whomever to do something about it. So it began with things like that.

[00:44:55]

Then we did probably three years in, we said, let's do a tour so that we can kind of look and that wasn't the tour that we have now. But we essentially said, let's look at historic buildings so we can continue to build the support for historic buildings. We said, “Why don't we have a salvage program?” Somebody says, because we don't have any place to put it. We got it. And then we started developing a salvage program. So there were and then we said, “People don't know how to do anything with their homes.” So we started developing brochures and Larry Smith developed the first brochure we ever had, which was brick preservation of brick buildings and brick in Butte. And which still to this day on our website is one of the most visited pages that we have is reference to that. So we did one for hot water heat. We did one for windows. Irene Schiedecker was involved. We brought workshops to town. So it's all those, it was advocacy. I think a lot of people just see us as an advocate.  And it's really much broader than that. Over time, but we feel, continue to feel that advocacy is important because there are people in this community, including in Butte-Silver Bow, that still do not see the future of Butte having anything to do with historic preservation. And so we continue to have that part of our mission and will never let that go because it's absolutely necessary for the future of Butte.

Jaap: Yeah. Yeah. I think CPR is great. Not just the advocacy part, but they're, I like that they're teaching and I don't know, kind of, we're not just gonna talk about it, we're gonna show you how to do the work and show you that the work can be done and like with Dust to Dazzle, it's so great to see that look, this building that no one thought was that great and look at what it can become and really show people that things can improve. I think that's great. So, okay, Clark, do you want to ask some questions?

Grant: Sure. You bet. Yeah. Did you ever think you'd be committing so many years to this place? So much time and energy. 

Rossillon: To Butte? Once I, well, actually I was gonna say, once I bought my house, but once I moved here in 1990, it's gonna be the home for the rest of my life. However, I will say this, even though I've accumulated properties of various types over the years, I like to say I could sell everything that I own in this town. And I couldn't buy a doghouse in Denver where I came from so maybe it's economics are tying me here. But mostly it would be so distressing to try to leave. And not just because of my career, which is almost over or historic preservation, because of the community at large and all of that mushy stuff, which is really such an important part of what Butte is about, the walkability, the being able to see people that you know on the street day after day, that are nice to you. It's just, I'll be here till I'm dead.

Jaap: Can I tie into that real quick? Because I had something else, can you talk to me a little bit about Jim? So you talked about how you're not married yet.

Rossillon: Yeah.

Jaap: Would you talk to me about Jim a little?

Rossillon: How so?

Jaap: How did you two meet?

Rossillon: Within a month of moving to Helena, because at that time he was the preparator for the Montana Historical Society and the preparator essentially builds the exhibits. So somebody designs them and then he would build the exhibits. And so he did that until he retired in about 92 or something like that. Anyway, in the meantime, he was one of those people that maybe I wouldn't have liked so much, although at the time, I didn't know, I was so opposed to demolition, he was involved in some major demolitions in Butte, or excuse me in Helena.

[00:49:12]

So the Burlington Northern, there was some kind of warehouse that was in the [inaudible] and then there was the Great Northern Depot, which is where the Great Northern center is now. Not the Depot that he demolished, but it was some, again, some kind of dispatcher's place. It was, they were really big. He also demolished the Toston Depot in Toston, Montana and all of those. You know, he wanted to make some money on the side. He grew up being very hands on.

He was a carpenter, but when he, especially when they tore down that, that Burlington Northern whatever the heck it was, that facility was huge. It was brick and big beams. I mean, just really fantastic beams. He said he is getting divorced from his second wife and he's like, I've got to go someplace and live. And so he went out in the Helena valley and he took all of that stuff and he started to build a house and the house got bigger and bigger and more and more impossible to complete because he was still working at the time. Just so it was a timber frame house that was made out of all of these timbers that he had gotten from the Depot and just recycled material that he had gotten from everywhere. So somebody was changing the windows out in the church and he goes, I think I can put those in my house. And he got ill after he finished working. And so he'd kind of slowed down a little bit anyway, but it was just impossible for him to finish. I don't know how many square feet it is. It might be 5,000. It might be more than that. It's huge. And so anyway, he eventually ended up selling before it was finished, but somebody has finished it.

Now, it's known as the castle in the Northwest corner of the Helena valley. It’s really quite interesting. What is important for me personally, aside from the fact that I loved him, was that he said you have to help me. So when I first bought my house, I said, “I'll hire you for $10 an hour and gas to drive down from Helena to help me fix up this house, which has this, just so many things that were really cosmetically awful about it.” And he said, “You have to help me.” And so he would say, “Screw this in.” And so I'd get out a screwdriver. This is my favorite story of all. I go, “eh,” he said, “No, you're not doing that. You've got to use a cordless drill and you've got to do this.” And then he just kept saying, “You have to do . . . I need your help to get this done and you need to do this.” And so, even though I always said that I'm quite unable to be a carpenter's assistant. I could never make a carpenter. What he did for me was say, “These are the tools, use these tools. Don't do it the hard way. Try to do it the easy way and you can accomplish something.” And then I started paying attention to, of course, materials.

So I am paying attention to materials. I started paying attention to tools. I paid attention, but it didn't, it's never really stuck to me how things get put together. I don't quite understand a lot of that. But anyway, that was really, it brought to me and he brought to historic preservation here because once he moved here, he was a member of CPR and just always had great advice and was always willing to write a letter to the county commissioners and saying, what the heck would you happen to be?

Jaap: That's great. I love it because I always think of you as like Mitzi can do it all. Like you're just so talented with all that sort of stuff. And I like the story that he taught you all that. Yeah, that's wonderful. All right. Sorry, Clark. You can go.

Grant: What happened to him?

[00:53:19]

Rossillon: He had cancer. And so he died in 2008. But actually it brings me to, so he's been dead for a long time and one of the things that he did, I bought a house down the street, one of the properties down the street, because another long story that doesn't bear worth telling about. But that's where I really got to learn more about tools and stuff like that. And then after he died, it was like, how am I going to do this?  Because I realized that there were some serious foundation issues and it has a stone foundation and we had already started addressing those by essentially repointing and I really did most of that because he wasn't feeling really well. But then I said, “Well, here's kind of a serious problem.” There's a post that's holding up the whole house in the middle that is almost totally rotten through. And how am I going to know how to do, how to do that? I mean, I know I'm gonna have to jack something up, I know I'm gonna have to put a footer, but then what? And so the moral of the story is there's people in the community. There are people that I knew, people that Jim worked with before, people that I call up and I say, “How do I do this?” And then there are people, because they cared about me, but they cared about the house.

They didn't want a house that I owned to fall down into a thing. And so they said, “Here's what you do. Here's where you better not just have one, you better have intermittent posts and put 'em all on footers,” et cetera, et cetera. And so that was really helpful right after he died. But before he died in 2005 was the first year Janice Hogan and Jim Warner and I were at an estate sale. And we said, “What we need in this town is to show people what can be done.” So here we had this house that was just…That we had just started working on the one that I ended up jacking up the middle post and replacing it. And we said, “Well, let's have a tour.” What should we call it? Janice said, “Dust to Dazzle.” And that's when, so we had this whole thing. So the house that we were working on was obviously dusty. But it was this, so this whole thing, and that was the year Jim and I got married is 2005. And then he went, as I like to say on his honeymoon with Jim Howard to Alaska, while I was doing Dust to Dazzling town and working. So on his honeymoon.

Yeah. Aw. But anyway, in any case, he was one of the three of us that really started the idea for Dust to Dazzle. And then of course, everybody since then has taken over and really made it a much more fantastic event than it was 16 years ago.

Jaap: It's great though.

Grant: You had said earlier regarding your study in college that you're just fascinated by the human past. I wanted to interrogate that a bit. Why are you passionate about that?

[00:56:34]

Rossillon: Well, I don't know, it's really formed a little bit more as time goes on. But I think one of the things that in, when I was in high school and we had to read about what the Greeks, very early archeology, how did archeology form and about Greek archeology and stuff like that, is like this whole imaginations of how, how did they do it? How could they have done it? And I think that had just built, has just built over time. So when, for example, I do a lot of stuff that's in historic mine sites. And so I'll go out and you'll see just a, some poor, pathetic little thing where somebody has been that is an adit and a fallen down shack. And there'll be, but there'll be a root cellar in the back of that. And then just that imagination that I can't say how it started, but that imagination of they were here all season long, they had to have a root cellar or they wouldn't have been able to keep their food.  And so then thinking, how many years were they here? Were they successful or weren't they successful? It really has a lot to do with, I don't know, a curiosity that other than that, I can't really explain it. It's just. And I don't think it's, it's not really an empathy for those people, but, well, I'll tell you what it is. As I grow older, it's a sadness for how hard they had to work. [crying] Sorry. So I didn't get to the whole story there but anyway, I could probably think of it more broadly if I was more introspective, but not.

Grant: That's fine. And so why does that move you, thinking about how hard they had to work?

Rossillon: You know, we are so spoiled. [pause] Their lives meant something. [crying] And I never met them.

[00:59:22]

But I'm gonna get in that way back machine. [laughter] I want to get in the way back machine and I want to see, I want to see Butte in 1917.  All that you have to do is read Myron Brinig’s Wide Open Town. And you're like, “Oh my gosh, could we recreate that?” I want to, well, I do want to, I'd love to do it someday on Miner’s Union Day, I would love, and it's not exactly the same, I know, but I'd like to be able to say we did it on the Anaconda Road. You've probably heard this story before. I want to have everybody dressed up with the lunch pail and wearing a slicker. I know they didn't wear the slickers outside, but walk with a slicker, walking down the Anaconda Road, just masses and masses of people leaving a mining area. I want to, I want to, I want to see that. I want to see a little piece of that. I want an acknowledgement. So I want an, and so those are things that have to do with history, but this connection, I have to go back to this connection, is the connection in a physical way that you can see with history is so important. And that's why historic preservation is important, but so is 200 people carrying lunch pails, walking down that little piece of Anaconda Road just to symbolize what it was like. That would essentially, thank you. I know this happens all the time in these interviews.

Jaap: So Clark is so mean. Yeah, you're just, he's the mean one, he's the bad cop.

Rossillon: No but, that whole, because people read about, when people say that part of Butte is passed, and we don't want to remember that because it's an icky part of Butte that is passed or something like that. It's like, it is all part of our history and a physical reminder of that is all that we have left. We cannot talk to the people. We cannot, we don't live their lives because we're spoiled rotten brats. And so what can, what do we have left? What we have left is a will to march down Anaconda Road, put up monuments, save historic buildings and the values, the traditional values of hard work and community and blah, blah, blah, and tolerance. Those are the things, that's what we have in this community that we need, that all of those things need to be saved. And not just say, I read about it in a history book. That's why I just don't get it.

Jaap: Yeah. Just reading about it is boring. I think we both said that earlier. That's very interesting.

Grant: Well, strangely enough, I wanted to ask about your writing, speaking of reading. But, I think I'm in that category of people who haven't read your writing, I'm guilty of that. But, I was hoping you could tell us about some of your publications in writing.

Rossillon: So in my field, they're really not called publications. They're called gray literature. And they're, it's just technical writing. So it's really focused on a resource. So it for, so for example, the Mai Wei thing is really, it has a piece of history that really focused on where the excavation was. So it tries to bring in other stuff, but it's really focused. And then the excavation is lots of technical stuff. Like we dug here and this is how many cubic centimeters and we use this kind of screen. And then here's some of the artifacts we found. So there's a lot of stuff like that, that it would really take a high bar for many people to read a lot of the stuff that I had read, unless there were something. So if you said I wanted to do . . . one of the things that I wrote that doesn't get read very much and it shouldn't really, but it's about the Silver Lake water line.

Jaap: I just read that like a month ago and I loved it.

Rossillon: Oh my gosh. I'm putting you down. I think now there are four people who have read it.

Jaap: I love that Silver Lake paper.

Grant: How about that?

Jaap: It's great.

Rossillon: But because everything is really tied to a resource. It is really, it's a different, it takes a different sort of reader or somebody who is motivated because they want to know about the Silver Lake line or they want to know about the history of mining in Basin, Montana, or they want to, you know, I'm trying to think of some other things. I mean they, stuff like that.

Jaap: Do you know what's great about those though is why they're fun. Maybe kind of weird but they're so place based. And I think that's what's really cool about it. Like you can see that place and read about it. And I think associating with a place is what's so cool about it.

Rossillon: Even if the place isn't there, because a lot of times when we do that, then the place is gone. The one thing that I've done recently that was published and it was published in the Society for Industrial Archeology, was a still place based thing. And that was a volume, I think the publication date is 2011, which I think they got out in 2015 or something like that. But that was the national magazine and it was a Montana based and Fred Quivik organized that. Brian Shovers has an article. And I wrote an article. It was essentially something I'd written before for the Montana Smelter, which is in Great Falls, which is a silver smelter that is right at Giant Spring State Park.

[01:05:35]

And so it has lots of technical things about how did lead smelter work and that sort of thing, but kind of, how did, you know, how did it end up there and that sort of thing. So that's one of the few things, but it's only published in the sense that you'd have to have a membership.

Grant: To that journal.

Rossillon: Right.

Grant: It sounds like the writing is functional primarily, like you say, it's tied, all these examinations are tied to a resource. I guess, when we first started talking, I thought you meant a cultural resource, like artifacts or burials or something like that, but it can also be a resource like water.

Rossillon: It could be it in that case, it was really the reason why the Silver Lake report was written is because there used to be a flume on, I think it was on Twin Creek.  Anyway that essentially tied Twin Creek waters to Silver Lake and then Silver Lake water went down to Myers lake to the smelter and then eventually to the weed concentrator, which it still does anyway. It was all, it was tied again, it's still tied to place or a resource in that case because the resource was, it was, as I like to call, you can call it mitigation. I call it penance that's penance for, penance for doing something like demolition. So the penance was to write this article about Silver Lake, the history of Silver Lake water.

Grant: The penance. Well, I wanted to touch on some other forms of writing. You know, there have been so many studies of the uptown. In fact, there's a master plan being developed right now. And, but going back, I've read documents like the RUDAT from the seventies or the, the HAER team from the eighties or the Regional Historic Preservation Plan from the nineties or the Comprehensive Historic Preservation Plan from 2013. And none of these were really implemented. And I wonder why that is. What are, in your mind, what are the obstacles to redevelopment of the Uptown? Why is there still so much vacancy?

Rossillon: I don't know.

Jaap: It depends who you ask. If you ask some people that say, well, we did that whole list. It's all done.

Rossillon: You know, the studies are, well, we shouldn't, we shouldn't say that this is something that is Butte-centric or only Butte's problem. One of the things Jim used to say, he gets, so because he worked out of the museum and at the Montana Historical Society and he goes, "I don't know why they have to spend money on another survey of the art that they're never gonna be able to conserve." And that kind of says it in a nutshell, meaning they had the money for the survey, but they don't have the money to hire a conservator to conserve the art that is in such terrible condition at the Montana Historical Society. You might have to redact that. I'm not sure, but okay. But so there are people that have really great ideas. They have really enthusiasm, it needs, and the URA has been able to do great things. And why has the URA been able to do a lot of good things is because they have the money, they have, what people need the incentive to do these, all of these things that we would think would be great in our community and require either money or manpower. And so the manpower part of it is, if there was, if there was a group that would say we are going to take this master plan that's coming out.

[01:09:44]

And we think we like all of it, or we even like a part of it. And it's like, we are going to ensure that that part is implemented. That would be great. But what happens is years ago there was like, we should have all these different groups that have our interest in tourism and we should have them get together and kind of collaborate and maybe have tickets that are, no, and again, do we have to blame anybody? I mean, I think we can acknowledge that if you're with an organization that's already doing tourism, you're full, you've got all, there's nothing left. There's no time left because you have so many demands by that organization.

I think there are a lot of people in this community like I am, people are like, well, what are you going to be doing six months from now? I have to figure out what I'm doing at the end of the week. And at the end of the week, then I'm gonna figure out what I'm gonna do the week after that. And the week after that. And so to expect and so a lot of organizations that might have interests that would help bring the community forward in terms of higher occupancy in the uptown area, in terms of wrestling away properties that people are not taking care of. They do not have the money or the energy to do it. As a consequence those decisions are left to Butte Silver Bow, but Silver Bow's interests are not necessarily the interests of all of us. And so until we can do whatever it is, and I don't know what that is, we're going to continue to have some problems. One of the comments that I made in the uptown master plan kind of meeting that I attended on historic preservation is they were concerned about lack of occupancy. And I said, "Don't worry." And I worry because there's all of a sudden this great interest in uptown Butte. What I worry is because there are people who are developing that have a different agenda than the agenda that I think is the future of Butte, which is this great opportunity to have economic development, historic preservation, community focus all of that. So I think part of it is going to be taken out of our hands simply by economy. And if you want to be blunt, you can see it in Bozeman.  Essentially they've got full occupancy and for what? We got to redact that part too.

Grant: Ah, it's Bozeman. I mean, I saw something on the news the other night that average rent prices in Bozeman for one bedroom, almost $2,000 a month.

Jaap: Jesus Christ.

Rossillon: I know that's crazy. It's like living in California.

Grant: And so I understand that you don't want Butte to be that, but we also can't keep letting the county tear down these buildings using the argument, "Well, clearly no one wants to do anything with it. So what good is it?" You know?

Rossillon: Right. I think there are people, so there are forces that are at work. There are forces at work besides logic that have to do with other things about, you know, for example, you're absolutely right. There's lots of residential property that could be residential property, property there at upper floors. And I don't think it's gonna be very long in coming to get that when people say I will say this about historic preservation in Butte,  I heard somebody say as the result of these last meetings, that, well, certainly something should be done to increase occupancy in the upper floors. And it's like, "Oh my gosh, you should have been here 15 years ago." Metals Bank, no residential. The Acoma, no residential. The Hirbour tower. I mean the Sears. It's like this is something that Butte, I guess, should teach all of us. And if you, if you haven't learned by now, go home. It is patience. This whole thing that we have to figure out, be happy with the things that are accomplished that are great accomplishments, even though the trajectory is really shallow. There have been wonderful improvements and there have been great historic preservation projects and there will continue to be, so don't get in such a big hurry to tear something down because it's, we're going to get there. We have proven that we're getting there, the Carpenter's Union Hall, just because Clark is standing, sitting here, I mean, something like that, which is, again, it was proposed for demolition. It's like all of those things, all those accomplishments in the last 15 years are proof, should be proof to everyone in this community that preservation works.

Jaap: Yeah. It's so shortsighted.

Grant: No, that's fine. I wanted to talk a little bit about SARTA and your time there. From my relatively new perspective on Butte, SARTA is the ingredient that has been missing for a lot of redevelopment of town, because it's been this dependency on private equity to come solve this problem for us, like Bozeman money, but now there's money in Butte that is open to anyone that can help solve this problem. So I'm curious about your time on SARTA and what you think of that as a force for change.

Rossillon: So, SARTA is really a great negotiated settlement piece for all sorts of things. And of course, all of it is not redevelopment. You know, some of it is for Silver Lake water, and some of it is for parks which is part of redevelopment. I understand that, but in a different way.

[01:16:20]

People for years before SARTA had come to this community and said, "I've got this historic building and I need some money to help me." I can remember very well someone, he has since died, he said, "Well, I went down line and I saw all these places that you could get money to help with historic preservation." And I said, "You're not gonna find anything." And so he spent whatever it was a hundred dollars and everybody else in the United States spent a hundred dollars to get this list of stuff that none of them were pertinent to where anybody lived and certainly were not pertinent to Butte. And so it is good to now have an opportunity to have a small piece of money.

So what SARTA has done, when I was on the board, I thought back and forth for myself is, do we spend this money all at once? Or do we spend it a little bit at a time? And the decision was made, we're going to spend it a little bit at a time. The consequence of spending a little bit at a time is it's, you don't get a really big bang. And so and the other thing that SARTA has not done, although, I mean, maybe they've done it subconsciously now as the time goes on, is, I really thought it should be, uh focused on the uptown area, essentially from [inaudible] north and not talk about other things that are outside because it was supposed to be again, penance in my way of thinking, penance for losses on the hill. And so every time that things are spent below LAO, it really doesn't address the intention of that particular thing. And so it also dilutes some of the funds that could go to some work uptown, but however, most of the projects are uptown,  not all, but most of the projects are uptown.

When people look, so I know that the Carpenters' Union Hall has benefited from it. There have been places in central Butte through a CPR grant that we got that have benefited through it, but it's really, it's hard, I think for the community to see that there has been a difference in a lot of the stuff. And so I think SARTA is great. It gives people the opportunity to do really good things in this community.  If it was more focused, I think it would be more interesting. I know some of the people that got grants in the last grant cycle and CPR got one too, which is for prismatic glass, which is a great project. It's a great continuation, has a great volunteer base. Most people in this community still have no idea what prismatic glass is. They don't know that it's any different than it was before. It is something.

And I do not blame the SARTA board for making those decisions. What the SARTA board maybe could do in the future is really focus it by soliciting specific, targeted something. So say we are going to, let's just say the commercial district some way that it would match with that master plan, if they would come to own a piece of the master plan and what that might be, whether or not it's just amenities or something like that. And say, we are going to own that in this grant cycle. And we are going to, if you're in this area, that that's what we're going to spend our money in. It could be a specific building or whatever, but we're going to be part of this larger something for one grant cycle. Yeah, I think that would be more interesting than some of the stuff that they did while I was on the SARTA board and they continued to.

Grant: Do you know, if there's communication taking place between SARTA and the master plan people, or even the Butte-Silver Bow growth policy? Because they, a lot of that is about targeting neighborhood, commercial. And is that communication taking place? Do you know?

[01:21:09]

Rossillon: You know, it would all have to be through Julia Crain. And she is pretty savvy about that, but I think we already talked about this. She has a job. So how, you know, and then of course it's not just Julia. I mean she really doesn't set the agenda. So I mean, if I were saying this is what would my vision would be and I'm not saying it is, I would say, well, I think that the growth policy and uptown master plan, those people need to talk once it's, once they have a final product, those people don't need to go directly, continue their focus group, continue their vision group, continue it and carry that forward to SARTA and to the board instead of to Julia, because Julia will say, well, that sounds like a good idea, but that she doesn't vote, take it to SARTA and say, we really think you should focus in your next grant cycle. Something like that. And I don't know that they would necessarily do it because it's a big board and they all have different ideas.

Grant: Yeah. Did you enjoy your time on it or do you miss it? I mean, you've been involved with a lot of governmental processes in Butte, including the HPC.

Rossillon: Yeah. I thought it was interesting, the people I met and I thought it was interesting how big decisions were made. There are many decisions about awards that I did not think, that I did not favor. And there were some decisions about other things besides community development and historic preservation that I thought that there should be some broader discussions about that. But the whole time I was there for the first three years, and we met almost the whole time every two weeks, and by the end of that, and I, that's at the beginning, it was well, probably the beginning. It was the best, probably in the last six months is when we finally went down to once a month. It was just too much.

Jaap: It's a lot.

Rossillon: So now it's, now it's a different thing. There's a lot of the same members there. And a lot of, I'll tell you about the SARTA board that I think is most endearing and a little bit disturbing. They are just so excited to see, to be a part of people wanting to do something great for the community. This is an opportunity for them to see people that are really enthusiastic and to have interesting projects and to really feel that they're a part of something and they are a part of something. And so it's a, it's really a great opportunity to, if you want to serve on a board to really work with a great group. But I like to get my way a little bit more often. There are many things that I disagreed with.

Grant: And so when you were on the SARTA board, it was in your capacity as a member of the historic preservation commission. Is that right?

Rossillon: Yes.

Grant: So tell us about the HPC. So is that an example of Butte CPR infiltrating the government?

Rossillon: Yes, no, because the HPC has really interesting - a really good board now. And I think one of the reasons is that it has a variety of people of interests, but everyone has historic preservation as a common interest. And I think in the past, I'm not sure that that was always the case. Maybe that was their stated interest was historic preservation, but they certainly didn't act like it. So what is the HPC has got seven members and they're chosen. So they have a realtor by ordinance. You're supposed to try to get a realtor. You're supposed to try to get somebody who is a professional in the field of historic preservation. So an architect, an archeologist, a historian or something like that. So all of those bases are covered now.

There's a sign maker in there. There's somebody that's, Bobby Stauffer, who is a new representative for SARTA, she's, you know, has a journalism background and just kind of a promotion, kind of a promotion bent. And now a new county commissioner that's the first time a county commissioner has ever been on the SARTA board or on the HPC. So it's really, but everybody really has an idea about what historic preservation means. Some, although, we don't always agree. In the past, what has happened there, they've become kind of knowledgeable, in the past there have been a lot of people that have been on it because they wanted to be on a, they thought they wanted to be on a board or something like that. And they weren't necessarily critical thinkers. And I think there's critical thinkers on the board now. So in the past, when a preservation officer said, "This is important, this is not important. This is how we should approach this." I think there was no question. There wasn't an opportunity, they felt to say, "Why?" or, "I don't want to do it that way," or something like that. And I think they're a little bit more critical thinkers now, which I think is, I think all boards should be critical thinkers. There's a saying, and perhaps you want to redact this, that is for years and years is, staff controls your board. And so that really meant the staff made the decisions and then essentially convinced their board to do that.

And so I feel like the situation now is, generally, while the HPC agrees with the HPO, they have the space to be critical and say, "I don't think that's the way we should approach this problem." So I really think that it's that that board has been a board for more than I, concept of a board for 30, 35, 40 years. I don't know. It's gone through lots of different things. I think they're, this board is more emboldened by their having a chance to use their voice, even if their voice is negated by the council of commissioners.

[01:27:54]

Jaap: So that's a great segue. So why now is there this confusion of the role of the HPC and their decision making and why do you think their decisions aren't respected by the board? And I guess as with the Blue Range, the whole fuss was over the 90 days and it's been past 90 days since this was a whole issue. So I feel like this whole fuss didn't need to be a fuss. Maybe you want to redact everything I say but I just, it's so frustrating. So why, why is it like this today? And just, I'd like to hear your insight on the recent happenings with particularly that decision.

Rossillon: Now I'm gonna sound old and snippy, but particularly for that, because at the same time there was another demolition request. And social media did us in. Yeah, I'm sorry to say. And it's not that people haven't been using social media before to the detriment of historic preservation. And it's not that people can't use that because CPR has been using that to try to support historic preservation. But it made a difference in this particular case. And it really has to do, well, first of all, it has to do with the ordinance and the ordinance says what it says, but people interpret it different ways. So when it says that a decision of the HPC can be appealed to the council of commissioners, people have to, the HPC, a decision was not made in terms of the 90 day, the decision it said, the ordinance says, you're supposed to do this. This is what you have to do. That is not a decision that is saying you pay attention to the ordinance because you try to cut to the front of the class and not do what everybody else in this community has to do. But when the city county government allows, chooses to interpret ways that I think are counter to what the ordinance says, there is a problem. Such as at the Blue Range.

[01:30:41]

So specifically concerning 90 days in that particular case, when it says, the ordinance says, you have to, you can appeal it to the council of commissioners, then because every everything that the HPC and now apparently everything that the HPC does or thinks about or whatever is appealable to the council of commissioners. That essentially means that the HPC has no standing whatsoever in controversial sorts of things. So it's kind of, it's like that situation where you work hard on getting something done, and then somebody goes over and then just throws it to the side and says, we're gonna do it this way.

It's like, wow, I just spent - writing this chapter in my book - I just spent two months doing it. And now you're saying that's not what I had in mind and I'm just going to throw it out because I can, because I'm your editor or something like that.

Jaap: Well, and these people are assigned to a board because they should have expertise to be on that board. And so just to kind of throw their decision aside when they should have the knowledge to make those decisions, or at least recommendations, is upsetting to me.

Rossillon: Right. It was quite a low, the Blue Range was quite a low blow, the way it happened. And especially because there was somebody who had made a backup offer, a substantial backup offer for the property. But the thing that happened at a commission meeting gave me hope and I am absolutely a glass half empty. I'm not a glass half full person. However, at that meeting, when the 90 days was the ruling of the HBC and it was appealed after a most laborious and convoluted and contentious thing, they, the council of commissioners voted to reduce it to 45 days. And that is a miracle. It has never ever happened that there was a majority ruling on something that was appealed that would essentially not have just completely thrown it all out. And so in this case, the glass is half full, I think there's and it has to do with, and actually there was a lot of that was said at that meeting was about this or these, the HPC is just following the ordinance and we should expect the proponents to follow the ordinance, too. Those are words that we don't hear from the council of commissioners. And so conclusion isn't, hasn't even had a conclusion yet, most disgustingly, but nevertheless there was something in there that made that, that gave hope.

Jaap: I don't know. Yeah. The whole thing is interesting and now all the things on the sidewalk and I drive by and I'd say there are Butte high school students parking next to that really dangerous building. Maybe someone should block off the parking lot or not let children park next to it, if it's that dangerous. But that's just my observations. I don't know.

Grant: Redact.

Jaap: Yeah. Do not let anyone listen. I'd like my paycheck, please.

Grant: I was hoping you could maybe help us understand the - kind of map this out because if you reading the newspaper, you're lucky if you walk away completely confused. I feel like, but the relationship between the HPC, the Community Enrichment department and the Council Commissioners - that triangle, I'm just curious about your interpretation of the dynamic there.

Rossillon: Okay.

Jaap: I wish we had a video camera on you because . . .

Grant: The scowl.

Rossillon: I refuse to answer. However, we all know the answer. We just, for future generations, they will not know the answer.

Grant: Oh no. Maybe I'll word it differently. Is Community Enrichment a misnomer?

[01:35:21]

Rossillon: No, it used to be called Community Decay, now it's called Community Enrichment. Okay. Their interests, not their interest, their vision is different than the HBC's than, and CPR's, and the historic preservation office. Their vision is different. Their solutions, their proposed solutions are the exact opposite of the solutions that we would advocate for.

Jaap: You mean half tearing down a building and then just leaving it there for months. Is that not what you would?

Rossillon: She gets redacted, right?

Grant: Yeah. That's the word of the day here?

Jaap: This interview did not happen. How do you feel about, should the URA be funding demolitions?

Rossillon: Absolutely not. And I've said that in a public setting so I can say it now.

Jaap: Have they funded demolitions in the past? It was said at the meeting they had.

Rossillon: Yeah.

Jaap: They have.

Rossillon: Apparently. I mean, you would,  I don't remember what the case was, but I know that, I know for a fact that there was a demolition, Town Pump on Gold Street. And I believe they asked for a demolition support on that and they were denied that's my memory. And somebody could remember. They did get - they agreed to help them with a sidewalk down there. But in that case, so if there have been demolitions, URA has been in business now for what, 35 years or something like that, they would, they'd be less than on one hand. Yeah. And as well it should be there. There are so many opportunities out there for things that have nothing to do with demolition and that have to do with, and not, they're not just historic, they're in-fill as well, which, there's something about that, but they're about community landscapes, whatever you call that infrastructure.

I mean, things that they do that are really positive for the community that don't have anything to do with demolition and why they would want to essentially get in the middle of something that is controversial like that with, and I'll just leave it there. It is really beyond me. It's really - because it's just anti almost everything else that they have supported in the past.

[01:38:31]

Grant: What about other memorable demolitions in your all your years in Butte? You know, which ones are at the forefront?

Rossillon: Well, the hospital demolitions, that was huge. And then this is a perfect case, Mrs. Famous's candy shop that was right across from, is that Porphyry that goes into the hospital, the green mile. Anyway that was a demolition. So the hospital demolition, they had their green mile, they had that all and then to go across the street and tear down that building, which would it have, that was long time ago when people weren't maybe paying as much attention. So there's that. I don't know, there's so many, I need to be prompted. You can say, did this one bother you? Did this one bother you?

Grant: The Greek Cafe.

Rossillon: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, the Greek Cafe and the other one was the oh, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Jaap: The Deluxe?

Rossillon: Yes. The one that was next to the Deluxe. The Brinks and the Deluxe. And that was, again, it really has to do with undue pressure put on historic preservation in really inappropriate ways. When that essentially made it virtually impossible to save a building. The Greek Cafe was in very poor, very poor condition. And there's no question about that. But you know, what this community needs to do, and this is, these were part of the conversations that were going on at that time is, it had to do with advertise it and they will come. And I think that would absolutely be true. Part of that discussion was actually, even though he wasn't necessarily a part of those was when Dr. Sorini  bought the YMCA and it was like, "I can do something with this." I think that there's a need in this community for his vision and that sort of thing, but we never, we go to demolition before we ask. And so we can say it's because the building is dangerous. We can say, because there's other economic forces that are, you know, in play, but demolition should always be the fallback. It shouldn't be, we don't lead. That's not the card we lead with.

Jaap: Yeah. Very good point.

Grant: How about the messaging of preservation? You know, I think a lot of people don't understand what historic preservation is as an industry, as a practice. I talk to people who say, "Well, I want to paint my house, but the damn HPC won't let me." And I always have to say like, "Well, if you're using public money, there are restrictions, but it's your private property, you know?"

[01:41:52]

Rossillon: The messaging is a problem. I get pretty testy when I hear this messaging problem, because some people hear what they want to hear and it doesn't make any difference. And so that whole thing about because I've had people on my block and say, "Well, we would love to have a sign, but we know that means that people can come into our house and tour it anytime they want." It's like, yeah. Yeah.

Grant: So what happened there? You know, when it was designated as the National Historic Landmark District, was there no explanation of what that means or widespread explanation?

Rossillon: It was a landmark district back in the dark ages. Yeah. So I don't know - I think it's because we're not getting the information to people in the way that people usually get information. So, and you know probably this more than anybody else, people, one of the things that people go to their neighbors. So for example, one of the sadder stories I hear about things that happen in Butte are older people that are like, "I've got to have somebody fix my furnace." So Martha, I'm just saying Martha for illustrative purposes only, "Martha, who do you know that can do that? Well, my son-in-law does it on the side." And so that's, so that's who goes in and fixes the furnace, but doesn't really fix it because they don't really know how to do it. And they just know how to cobble things together. In the same way that whole word of mouth thing is something that is, I think, deeply ingrained. And I won't, I guess again, I won't have to say it's necessarily Butte, but it's like, where do you get your information from? You get your information from the people that you hang with. And if somebody in there has an axe to grind or just in general misinformation, it is really hard to counter that sort of thing. So that's the sort of discussion I would like to have with somebody because I'd really like to improve historic preservation messaging. And I don't know and all I do is get mad. And so I can't be in part of that conversation but figure out a way to essentially do that.

Jaap: I think you're right. I think you hit it right on the head though. There are so many assumptions and word of mouth that, yeah. People aren't actually hearing about this anywhere. It's just, oh, right. You know? Yeah. Okay. Sorry that I wasn't . . .

Grant: That's fine. Redact. What about the Butte Historic Trust bit of that's a glass half full sort of story, is it not?

Rossillon: It's absolutely a glass, it might even be three quarter full.

Jaap: Oh, Mitzi!

Grant: Well, let's hear about that.

Rossillon: So when I said before that Butte CPR is looking at, has over the years, just looked at a variety of ways to try to forward our mission and the things that we wanted to do. Many years ago, I went to a national trust historic preservation meeting and they talked about a revolving fund. And I said, "What?" And then they were big places like preservation in North Carolina, and they were talking about it. It's like, this is the most fantastic thing I've ever heard of. And then dot, dot, dot 10 years later, I went to another meeting and this one was in Spokane, which is probably still more five or six years ago. And somebody else did the same thing. And it's like, what? You know, they're still talking about this program that had gone on for 20 years before. And that last meeting now gone for 30 years, they cover all of North Carolina. I mean, just really fantastic things. And it's like, it seems like it's the sort of thing that we would like to do in Butte, which is the revolving fund for historic preservation, that would take buildings that are in distress that would purchase them, that would work to improve those and turn around and sell them with the preservation easement attached. And so that with the preservation easement attached, then they can't do certain things like build a second story, pop the roof or something like that. And so that was just such a wonderful model that seemed like it could fit here.

Distressed buildings got those, you know, people that would be kind of motivated to do it, got those. And the first time we were talking about it, that's when SARTA was going to have a big money and all of the money was going to go to historic preservation, not to be split out in different pieces, which was part of a later negotiated agreement. And at that time they were talking about $25 million and was like, well, we could do a lot on a revolving fund with $25 million in this town. Time went on. SARTA turned out to be something different than it was originally, but then whatever it was a year and a half ago, we found out about this organization that essentially likes to kickstart revolving funds.

[01:47:40]

And we applied for feasibility study grant. And then we did a feasibility study, a strategic plan, and then we applied to them for funding, essentially a startup and they did it. And so now we suddenly have this great organization with a great board. Great, great community support, in financial support. And we just don't have a building yet. The unfortunate part is that when we are looking for distressed buildings, I never thought I would say these words out loud, everybody else is looking for a distressed building, because they can think they can buy it. They can turn it around either quickly and do a quick thing or else turn it into something and then live in it. Not so much or sell it.

Grant: Or flip them.

Rossillon: Yeah. But anyway, it's still a great model. There's so many things that are great. The board is really great. It's got good community members from all sorts of disciplines and interests and stuff like that. So this is, it's a, now the Butte Historic Trust is a wholly owned subsidiary of CPR. So we still like to think that we have some interest in it. Although that we are trying to let them go. And so among the other things is now we're going to, it's really, tried to make us think more broadly about how we can directly affect. What has happened in the past, we were advocates for, we gave out small grants because we had CPR has this great but small historic improvement program thing where we give small grants some way and stuff like that, we really didn't have the opportunity to directly affect historic preservation. And so this is really, this is the mechanism for that. And that's what is so great about that.

So however it will continue to need some funding. And so now the next, this group of people that started out with the strategic plan or with a feasibility study, the strategic plan, the formation of BHT is now working on the next piece is we are looking at what are some major funding opportunities that we need to create. Not that we need to take advantage of. We need to create funding, bring investors and projects,  our projects, BHT's projects together. So the glass is three quarters full in that particular case.

Jaap: I really look forward to seeing how this all rolls out. I think it'll be really good.

Grant: I was talking with a plumber not too long ago who said their company is now working with a Seattle firm who bought homes in Butte. They buy them 17 at a time. I mean does BHT intend to compete with that or is it a separate?

Rossillon: We cannot compete. I'm not surprised. I mean, I've heard things sort of like that. What CPR has always had a hard time is connecting with new owners and the trades. And that is an important piece that really needs to be developed. So you see that there are so many things that CPR has to do going forward. And the problem with the trades and perhaps this should be treated a little bit differently is they only know their little piece. They only know, or they act like they only know their little piece. And so when somebody says, please cut a hole, a huge hole in this wall. So we can run the plumbing up here and not knowing that you are cutting through the back of a gorgeous fireplace or something like that. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but not much of one, in terms of the different trades, don't get the whole picture who should be getting the whole picture is the property owner.

When the property owner is not here and you can't approach them, the only person you can get to is the trades. So that piece of preservation still has such a long ways to go. But to get to your point, we can't compete because there is a place, this is, and I'm making this up, but it that would have sold, if it sold at all for $30,000 two years ago, is now selling for a $100,000. We cannot, we don't have the money to compete against that. So we have to go to private sale. BHT has to go to private sale and even so you're still competing against everyone else, because I don't know about you guys, I get once every month or every two months a card in the mail, your house is so gorgeous. We'd really like to sell it for you. Are you interested in selling? People calling from California. How did you get by number? I mean, the pressure is really phenomenal. And no one can blame somebody who had a house that was a piece of junk two minutes ago, and somebody wants to pay a $100,000 for it. I mean, why are they gonna say, no, I want to give it, I want to be altruistic and give it to this organization. I think there are people that were out there and would do a bargain sale, but we haven't been able to connect with those people. That's a mechanism that is used really successfully elsewhere is like, the house is worth a $100,000, but if you need a tax credit, sell it to us for $30 and you get $70,000 essentially a credit for that.

Grant: Well, I have a set of questions back about your family and things, but you know, is there more that you wanted to?

Jaap: I just, so we have seen this huge boom in building sales, and I know that the people we've dealt with, none of them are from here. Do you think - I'm always a glass half empty person when it comes to this and I hope it'll end up well, but do you think it'll end positively with all of these out of town people coming in and trying to do these grand projects that they have?

[01:54:17]

Rossillon: I'm reserving judgment. I think there's a couple things. They do terrible things to historic buildings and the county, Butte Silver Bow is really not prepared to handle every aspect of a big building boom, from infrastructure to building codes to archives, to all of it. I mean, there's just not, some of it is a culture of not being able to and not having the finesse to do it. And the other thing is just there's so much pressure. I won't say what I usually say in that regard. There's so much pressure to, these are people that are, that are looking at our community now, and we haven't had anybody looking in our community before and we want to facilitate that. And so there are some concerns.

On my street, this is the first time since I've lived there for whatever I said, I moved there in 94. There's only one house on the block that is unoccupied. And there are probably 20 houses on the block and there's always been houses that have been unoccupied. And so this is the first time. And some of the things that are done have been good and some not very good at all. And things that people left in their houses by accident all over these years are now being considered liabilities. So a neighbor has the most gorgeous residential, single family dwelling, residential bathroom, historic materials in it that I have ever seen in Butte. And they don't like it and they're tearing it out this year. And it's like, this has got a shower that has chrome rings around it. So that shower goes from every side. It's got original, it's got original toilet. It's got original everything, it's got tile, it's got shelves. It's got things that hold robes. It's got everything. I'm not going to despair, but if I allow myself to go into a dark place, I do despair of some of what is going to happen.

Jaap: You can continue to your question.

Grant: Okay. I want to kind of work back to the farm here. What about your siblings?

Rossillon: My siblings? So I have four sisters. They're all younger than I. The one that's youngest to me, she's retired . . . I'll say this first. They all are still are active in the Catholic church. And so there's a black sheep in the family and you can make, draw your own conclusions about which one that is. But the one that has recently retired, she had a great job working for Current as a master planner. And she has a husband. She has two kids that are doing very well, that are smart, have great jobs. She lives in Colorado Springs, all the rest of my siblings live in Denver. Not in the same suburb. The next sister is a, she is really a big wig. She's going to retire soon with Jefferson County, which is one of the suburb counties of Denver. And she's in charge of community development and transportation or something like that, which is a huge job.  I wish she would. I keep telling her, I wish she'd come here and she'd straighten us all out because yeah, she really, when I have conversations with her on the phone, she'll have some frustration, I'll say, well, let me tell you what happened here. And it's like, we just need to put on our big boy pants in this town and really see how other, really see how other communities are making decisions and that sort of thing.

But she's not going to move from Denver. And she has a husband who is also an engineer. So two of my sisters, my father's an engineer, two of my sisters are an engineer and their daughters, she's got an okay job, but she wants to, she's working in human resources. It's like, oh my gosh, shoot me now really, really a difficult job, I think. And then my next sister used to be my brother, she's transgender. And she transitioned when she was probably about 50 years old. So it was really quite a surprise to all of us. And I suppose that without having very detailed conversations with her, because I think a lot of it, she does not want to talk about.

[01:59:40]

I think, what was her life like? I mean, did she really know that she was transgender when she was a child and all of these years, nothing was ever able to do anything about it, but nevertheless, she is still married, but they don't live together with her wife, and who moved to Pueblo, but they have three children and they all have pretty good careers as well.

Grant: Wow.

Rossillon: All our, everybody went to college, that's in the family and then the youngest, Dolly, she has two kids. One's going to Tech right now. And another one is, he has some, I guess, some learning disabilities, but he's kind of like one of those savants. He really cares about math and all that sort of stuff. He could not care one word about English. And so though he has some really,  great skills, communication skills are not necessarily good with him, but I'm sure that he will be the head of a something important, as well. And their daughter is, her interest is coding and which is actually quite remarkable. I didn't know that coding was still such a male dominated field, even up at Tech. She said, I'm in coding. There's nobody else, hardly anybody else does coding. All they want to do is game, do game production and stuff like that. Game design. And she is finding out what, after being protected in high school, what it's like to be discriminated against, not discriminated against, what I say is dismissed because her interests and her gender are not what everybody else at Tech is used to in the computer field. So the instructors get it. The students have no idea.

Jaap: No, good for her.

Grant: That must be nice to have her in town.

Rossillon: Yeah, it is.

Jaap: She's the one we've, I've met, right?

Rossillon: Yes she, yeah. Yeah. I think it's always on St. Patrick's day.

Grant: Yeah. okay. I wanted to ask about your mother, other than wearing pants, what were some examples of her strong will?

Rossillon: Well I'll tell the toaster story because it's one of my favorites. Everybody in the family remembers the toaster story. Okay. But they had got a wedding present years before for a toaster and it didn't work anymore. So they went to get a new toaster at, I believe it was at Joslyn's, which was a department store and it did not work. And she took it back and she had a fit and fell in it. And while she should have, because it did not work, but she was in there. She's saying, "I'm not taking this back. You have to give us our money back. I want to go." I mean, all the things that you should say when you have a, you've paid for something, but all the children were cowering in a corner because we're like, our mother is yelling at the - no. Yes. So that, that was kind of, that's a story. That's the story.

But what she did when she actually, when all the kids were out of the house and I don't even know how she got involved with it, but she was interested in city parks. She felt in the community that they lived in, which is Wheat Ridge that they should have, it's incorporated, but it's in Jefferson County that they should have more city parks and that they were not developing. There was vacant land and they should be developing them. And she, as my daddy referred to them, the three or four gray haired old ladies would just go to meeting. She was on the, she ended up being on the arborist board, but they kicked her off of the arborist board. I can't remember. He just mentioned that recently. I couldn't remember the circumstances because I was already, I was out state, so I didn't know much, but she was and this is one would hope that someday after I'm deceased, somebody would say there's that lot that, what my father says now there's a lot that they wanted to make a city park and they never would make a city park. And now it's a beautiful city park.

I want them to say there's that thing that Mitzi was so, got her panties in such a wad about, and now look at it. There's flowers hanging off of planters and people going up and down the stairs and all of that sort of thing. But so she was that I guess the really, being on that, that group of people that really thought that it was something important to go to city hall, to go to whoever it was constantly, constantly nagging them to find out how they can get another city park.

Jaap: That's not you at all.

Rossillon: Well, what's so strange about that whole thing is that that was just baked into her personality because that was long after I wasn't around to even see all the day to day of that. And really mainly to hear it from my father after she died about how much effort she put into that.

Grant: How has he coped all these years since she's been gone?

Rossillon: He, well, I think I mentioned that he was, I said he was a contractor, but essentially a consultant. He did that a lot. He was and still is very active in the Knights of Columbus. And he wrote a book. Oh, I forgot about that. This is really important.

[02:05:17]

He wrote a book called One Lucky Guy.  And it's a story of his life. And it was, he just talked about how his family growing up and things that happened on the farm and people that were on the farm and then how he made a decision to leave the farm, much to his older brother's chagrin, because it was like Leonard said, "I've got to have somebody help me run the farm." And he's like, I'm not gonna do it. I've been to war because he went, he was in World War II, of course. And so he talked about that experience, but he said, "I've been to war and I don't, I can't come back to the farm. It's just too much work." And so Leonard goes, "I know. That's why I need you."

So and then how he met my mother when he was in college, when he was in college and then how they, how he met the in-laws and stories about that. And then how he had the kids and you know, how they, the houses that they lived in, in Denver and stuff like that. So that, so anyone who's interested can contact my family and you can read, he'll let you see a copy of One Lucky Guy.

Grant: Oh, that sounds so cool.

Jaap: I love that he did that.

Rossillon: And he did that right after she died. So he would just sit out on the patio and he would just write long hand and write long hand. And then pretty soon Genie is like, well, I got to start typing some of this stuff up and then he finished it. It's not published. It's just there's like seven copies in the world, but we each have one.

Jaap: Limited edition.

Grant: Yeah. Well, and on that farm, what kind of farm was it? That was my final question, but yeah. What do they farm in Kansas?

Rossillon: So on my mother's farm, it was a wheat farm. We still own the farm or we don't. And we technically, our farmers, we're active, meaning we're not really active. We just sell the crop but we have a farmer who is actually related to us, sort of, it's like a, he's related to cousins, second cousins or something like that. So he runs the farm, but we still own it because it was our mother's wish. It was our grandmother's wish that the family kept it. And then we're the last ones. There's another little piece that is actually not, doesn't have the original farm on it that we don't own anymore, but every time somebody wanted to sell a piece of it, then, thank heavens for my father. He said, I will help you pay for this farm. So now we owned three quarter sections of dry land wheat in Kansas.

And, of course, the farm house burned down long time ago. There's just a garage out there, but we do go back there fairly, once every few years and look at the land, pretend like we know something, which we do not know anything at all. My father's farm. He was, that's in southwest, it's near Dodge city, half hour or so away, but he lived in Eastern Kansas and theirs was an entirely different farm. It was really cattle, but they did all sorts of, my father was so proud of his father because he did, he had, they had cattle, but if they decided, if he and Leonard his older, that is his grandfather, my grandfather and Leonard decided they were gonna do something like, they'd go do pigs, or they'd say, we're gonna do sheep right now. Well, they just do, they would do all sorts of experimenting when people didn't have any electricity at their farms, then the grandfather would say, I'm gonna put a wind generator or something like that out.  They just did all sorts of really, renovated, really great things that is still in the family, Leonard's son just died a few years ago.

[02:09:26]

So now it's in this next generation who, or not quite the workers, but there's something I can't remember how many acres they have now. It's at least 2000 acres, which is a lot of acres in Eastern Kansas. And it's essentially, they raise hay and livestock is their - but they must have a, they probably also have some other, maybe some kind of cereal crop or some kind of forage crop, I suppose they raise as well.

But anyway, it was really, well he loved both his, my father loved both his mother and father a lot because they just, they were hard workers and they just did really fantastic things. He always said, we were the best off of people that were in their little neighborhood, which is their little part of Carbon County. He said he can remember as a child going down the street. And he would say to his mother or father, what is all that stuff? And it was somebody had been kicked off the farm because, and their stuff was just out on the street. And he couldn't understand that because they didn't really have, they had a big garden, they had all those things, but they were better off than somebody who had their stuff just kicked off on the road. And where did they go? Daddy goes, I don't know. I never, I don't know what happened to them.

Grant: Like you say, we're spoiled rotten, Mitzi.

Rossillon: I know, I know, because in that case where there was no safety net at all. Yeah. And so they presumably went in with family members or something like that, but here you are, you made whatever pittance you could make on a farm and that farm, maybe have been, maybe it was 160 acres and maybe I had a chicken and a milk cow and a who knows what? And then you get kicked off of the most pitiful farm in the neighborhood then what?

Grant: Yeah. Hard times. Well, that does it for my questions. Okay.

Jaap: Yeah, unless you have anything you want to conclude with Mitzi.

Rossillon: That's enough talking.

Grant: Great. Well, thanks for your time.

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